Attunement and Subsumption: Nurturing Healthy Relationships and Enhancing Well-being with Heather Saba (59)

Hi everyone and welcome to How the Wise One Grows. Before we get started, let's just take a moment to land here together with 3D breaths. So just find a space where you can be. Still, if that's available or if not, just notice where your body touches the earth or the ground beneath you. Take a big breath in, fill your chest, fill your belly with air, Exhale, open your mouth, let it out Again. Inhale, fill your chest, fill your belly with air, Exhale, open your mouth, let it go. One more big inhale and exhale And then return to that sensation of your body as it connects to the earth beneath you and you can slowly open your eyes as you return to this space. I am so excited for today's conversation one because it's getting to reconnect with someone who our souls like cross paths really briefly, years and years ago in Ashamanism I think it was Yiddish Shamanism class and I've just loved seeing the work she's been doing in the world. So today we're here with Heather and Heather and I know each other from. We both went to UVA and Edith Turner is this amazing anthropologist and, just like I swear she was just the most magical soul Had a class on a Thursday evening. It was in her house. It was cozy, I remember she always had like tea and ginger cookies and she was just. It was incredible. We talked about so many spiritual things. I so deeply wish I could be back in that class now, But I'm so excited to see you again. Thanks for being here, Heather.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me and it's so beautiful to start our chat with Edie in the room with us because she was just such a guiding force, i'm sure, for both of us on our spiritual path and just love her so much. That was such a special time to be with her and her presence before she transitioned over.

It really was. Yeah Well, how have you been? what have you been doing in the world? I know tidbits Heather has. I know that you're a clinical herbalist. You're doing really wonderful work. I love your Instagram and Heather has this amazing sub-stack, which is what drew me to her in today's conversation, which we'll get into, but do you mind just sharing? with listeners a bit about what you're doing in the world right now.

Yeah, as Holly said, i'm a certified clinical herbalist and nutritionist and I've been practicing now for almost 10 years as an herbalist. It's really inspired me to connect deeper with the natural world. That was really my biggest inspiration with going on that path. I've partnered that with the writing that I've done throughout the years and that's really what's coming through a lot with my sub-stack now. Holistic education and really wellness-based education is what I'm focused on. I really have a handle and a lot of different things in the natural world, but essentially just helping to guide people back to their human body, back to feeling good in their bodies and connected and aligned with their purpose.

I think that you might not remember this, but I remember one time in college going to your apartment and you had this beautiful tea blend on the stove. I had just never seen true tea blend in that way, like with all the herbs in the pot. You were really one of the first people that introduced me to that world of herbalism and really started curiosity there.

I love what you've been doing. Thank you. The herbs have been such a big inspiration for me for many years now. I love thinking back to those big herbal brews I would make back in Charlotte's mill. Yeah, herbalism will always be a strong pillar for me. Through my work with the plants has really led me to become more inspired with how plants guide us deeper into the other realms, so how they're actually guiding us deeper into our psycho-emotional and psycho-spiritual levels. I was really a spark to learn more about herbalism, initially through physically, what it's doing in the body. Then, more recently, or throughout the past couple years, how do we actually connect that through other layers? Really that's what inspired me to launch my sub-stack more recently is the weaving of all of those together, if that makes sense.

Oh yeah, definitely. I hope that we can weave that in to our conversation today. Today what most sparked me. There's so many things I feel like I could talk to you about, but you had put out this article about attuning versus subsuming. It reminded me of one time I was having a conversation with my therapist and she was something I am always probably going to be working on is the way she phrased it was holding your gravity when you're with someone. She had us sitting across from each other in a room and it was like so when I'm in a conversation, I very physically do this. I lean in to the person, I'm listening to, I am leaning and I'm fully immersed in that person. She was like that's great that you're listening, but if that person wobbles or falls and you're leaning into them, you would fall too. How can you practice being with someone in a room and holding your gravity? You're still in that room, you're still listening, you're still soaking it in, but if they fall, you're not going to fall too. I was curious if we can backtrack to this concept of attuning versus subsuming. That's what sparked my interest. What could you explain from your perspective, what it means to attune and what it means to subsume?

Yes, i love that you're bringing in the vision and what your therapist shared with you about that sense of gravity, because you really just hit the nail on the head. That is the essence in the difference between when you're attuning to someone or attuning to a situation, and when you're subsuming to it. When you're subsuming, that's when you're leaning in and not just leaning in in an empathetic, compassionate way. You want to lean into, attune with somebody, because you can't do that as well. but that's when you're leaning on somebody else, so to speak. You're like how can I get as close to you as possible? How can I? or as immersed in this experience? or the situation doesn't have to be with a person. It could be with a job opportunity, it could be with a living situation or really anything in life. Attunement is more when we're allowing ourselves to experience harmony with whatever that situation, that person, that relationship is. That is the secret sauce of maintaining your gravity. It's when you're able to hold your presence and actually be and harmonize, just like if you were playing an instrument. you're harmonizing with that person, you're harmonizing with the world around you, versus when you're subsuming. you're like how do I dissolve into the situation? You're so enamored by something, or you just want to really connect with that person, or you really want that opportunity, or there's so much chaos around you and your environment, so you just let your sense of self completely dissolve in the other, or you let it absorb into you, however you visualize that. Yeah, that's the essence of it. It sounds like you're already meditating on it, which is amazing.

I really love the way you explain that. With the music element too, other than just trying to play what someone's playing exactly and almost like, you can bring out more fullness and create something more powerful and potent when you're like here's where this can go in here. These are two different things, but they compare to enhance this song, this moment, to another layer. So I'm definitely someone who my go-to is to subsume, and I feel like it's led to burnout with a lot of things and even people and relationships that I really love.

To me.

I can see ways in which, in my life, subsuming has led to resentment. Building up Resentment and burnout are probably the two things that come most to my mind. How can people like me I hope they're out there how can people work on if you're a inclination is to subsume? How can we start to take a step back, hold our gravity and focus on that attunement?

Yeah, this is a really, really good talking point. And also, just know that you're not alone. This is something that I have a tendency for that I feel like most people especially, i'm sure, a lot of folks listening out there have a proclivity for that, have a proclivity to subsume, because a lot of people that are attuned to subtle energy or they're attuned to the natural world around them, it's really easy to want to dissolve your sense of self into that, especially if it's something that you like or if it's something that you want to bring into your life. Maybe it's a person you admire or a lifestyle that you really want to take on, or a culture that you're really into. We tend to just like how do we let it come into ourselves? But in subsuming, you're actually abandoning a part of yourself in doing that If a part of yourself, if not all of yourself and that's often where the burnout comes in. That's often where the resentment comes in that you're talking about, because all of a sudden it's like you devoted all your energy on subsuming into that thing or that relationship and then you're resentful because you have lost touch with yourself and you've lost touch with your authentic source and your natural, authentic presence and your identity in the other, the other being an environment, a person, a situation, etc. So, in order to not subsume, this is the same. that goes back to the old adage energy goes where attention flows, or vice versa. And really, the more you focus your energy on attunement and the practices of attunement, the less you'll subsume, the more you'll build that new neural pathway into favoring attunement in those situations, into being like oh, this is a person I'm really curious about, or this is a situation I'm really magnetized by, and then naturally you'll gravitate away from subsuming and let me absorb it and just become that thing, into attuning instead, where you're like oh, i hold my own uniqueness and my own identity and my own authenticity, and here's this new instrument or here's this new sound, this new thing that I want to harmonize with and I want to play with, and you have your own little metaphorical jam session where you're just able to reverb off each other and you're able to really sink in and harmonize that is how we shift away from subsuming automatically, if that's our tendency into attunement.

Do you have any practices or examples of ways people can work with that in their day-to-day life?

Yes, so I know we're talking about. we're breaking down all of the details, so it might sound more technical than it actually is, but it's really simple in practice and anybody listening to this can actually start to do it even right now, in this moment, and, if not, when you're in the grocery store this evening, when you're going for a walk. you can start to implement it at any moment in your daily life. And I do that by pausing, and this is something I've developed an entire online course about the art of the sacred pause. It's what I decided to name my sub-stack. This is something I'm really passionate about, and effectively learning how to take intentional pauses throughout the day can completely transform the way you not only experience your life, but also allowing you to attune in those moments, to step back and recognize how you can attune, or maybe even instantaneously bring you into a place of attunement, depending on where you're at in that moment. So, really, through pausing, all you have to do, and we can even do it right now in session.

I would love that.

Yeah, but it's just like how you introduced us in the beginning of the session. It's to soften your gaze or close your eyes and maybe usually I like to put one hand on my heart or to make contact with the body in some way. Make contact with your own body, ground yourself back into home, into yourself and just notice. You don't have to take any deliberate breath work, you don't have to do any particular visualization. You just sit, you intentionally pause and you just notice What is there. You notice what you're feeling, you tune into yourself. You've got this hand making contact with your body. You're noticing and you're reconnecting with your inner world And from that place you can call to mind the thing that you're trying to attune to or the person you're trying to attune to the environment, if that's your goal, if you're sitting here and you're wanting to attune to something, you call to mind what that thing is and then you notice. You notice what comes up for you when you call that to mind. Maybe you notice how your breath is changing in that moment. You notice if there's any physical changes that are occurring. You slow down and you pause and you observe The vibration of that person, that situation, that environment is feeling like in your body, with your own internal vibration, and you just you observe and you notice it. And then you ask yourself, after you sit with it for a moment, how am I feeling? Do I feel like I am subsuming into this situation, into this person, or do I feel like I'm attuning, or is there a level of attunement that's off? And if so, what could I do in this moment to bring myself back towards attunement? Just trusting, whatever the first thing is that arises?

That's really beautiful. Yeah, thank you. I feel much more grounded.

You did the best to you, thank you.

I really love how that has you really physically drawing in to your body and taking that moment to listen. I feel like so much of when I catch myself subsuming, and often it's when I'm like at that point of burnout it's because I've neglected my needs. in those moments Then I haven't held a boundary to serve myself and I haven't even known them within myself and without that I haven't been able to communicate it to someone else. That pause to just lean in, remember that I'm in this body and what does my spirit need, what does my body need to take care of me, it's like a really good landing point. first, and then feeling into what is around us.

Yes, i love that you just brought this up, because and I know we've touched on it a little bit in talking about subsuming but really our tendency to subsume really does come from a place of when we're already feeling depleted. The reason being is because in those moments we've neglected a part of ourselves, we've abandoned a part of ourselves in order to continue pushing forward, or whatever is causing the burnout, whether it's caretaking for somebody else, whether it's a really busy job or upholding whatever the reason being for the burnout, it's information for our body too. That's information for our body, for how can we bring it back to this place of attunement, to this place of harmony, not just with the other, but within ourselves as well? That's a really good nugget. Thanks for bringing that up.

Thank you. I think it's just this constant balancing of being a part of a whole, and seeing this connection in oneness but also seeing that you are your own entity simultaneously. That can be a complicated thing to grasp and a really complicated thing to practice. I think about it a lot with mothers. You have this life you've created and you're tending to and caring for, and so much of your energy and effort is going into that and holding this balance of. You are of me, you are from me, you are a part of me, but you're also your own thing. In order to tend to you, i have to tend to me too. I think that's probably something a lot of people can relate to as their entering motherhood or at different phases of it is this how do we continue to care for and love on and be our fullest and give our fullest selves to these things? I think often we think by giving, giving, giving, we'll give us the best results, but I feel like what I'm hearing from you and what I've been learning throughout my life has been the more I step back and tend to myself, the better able I can tend to those things around me 100% exactly.

I love that you bring up the connection here with motherhood and with mothering, because oftentimes when you look at subsuming and attuning side by side, you think, oh, attunement is good, subsuming is bad. Really, it's not that polarity at all, it's just that it's more of an observation of where your energy is going and how you want to feed it back into yourself. When it comes to mothering an actual child, it's interesting from a biological perspective, because subsuming, by definition, is absorbing something else into something else, absorbing something into you. This child was literally created from you and then birthed from your body as a woman. There's an entirely different bond. There's an entirely different tendency to subsume because this thing literally was absorbed in you, so to speak. Obviously, we understand it. It's its own being. But because it was so kindred in you, it was so enmeshed with you on a cellular level, that tendency to subsume is even stronger. There's a real beauty in that. Children is not just a negative thing. Essentially, how children are born and then offered into the world is through that they're subsumed into you and then they're birthed out of you and you're learning how to attune to this new being.

Yeah, i think. another thing I tend to find to be more and more true is that opposites are always existing simultaneously and for one to be there, the other has to to. It's not just good, or? bad and that there are these waves. It's kind of learning how we can. I almost feel like there can be a level of finding attunement even as you ride those waves. As you. Okay, maybe this is a time like, okay, maybe I'm pregnant and I'm not pregnant, but in this example.

Maybe someone is yeah, in theory.

Maybe it's like my body's going through this physical subsuming. How can I attune to this moment and not? how can you do both simultaneous? or if I'm in a phase of life where I really am subsumed with this goal or project I'm working on, that's not a negative thing. But can I hold a layer of attunement in this? How can I? hold both in this moment.

Yeah, and it's more just like it's an observational point, so it's a place for you can take a step back and be like, if you're subsuming something and you're okay with that and you want to subsume it, you're like I want to absorb this into me, i want it to be a part of me, that's okay. It's just more about having awareness over it And for a lot of people, we are subconsciously subsuming all the time, with so many situations, projects, relationships, et cetera, and we have no idea. And this is where, like, that practice of the art of learning how to attune, the art of stepping back and actually noticing what's happening on a subtle level, can really allow us to benefit and experience the situation more, gain more insight over it. So, yeah, it's possible to be doing both at the same time And it's not that one has to be exclusive to the other. I kind of see it more like there is a polarity between them, but it's more of like a dance between attunement and subsumement And it's not like once you dial in in this moment and you're like, okay, I figured out how to attune to this person and the situation. Tomorrow they're going to be completely different and you're going to be completely different And it's going to have to be a new rhythm that you're going to have to find between the two of you. If that's the dynamic you're working with And it, yeah, there's an art to it and it's really calling us to remain curious and continue, remain playful, rather. And just continue dancing between them and noticing what your needs are in that moment. Do you actually want to be subsuming in that situation or do you want to attune? And then, what can you do? what you know, direct action can you take to move towards attunement.

I love that, seeing it as this dance of back and forth, aside from that really wonderful pause that you shared, that sacred pause, do you have any other helpful ways to help people as they kind of play around with this dance and maybe, if they catch themselves in a space of feeling burnt out, how can we pull back in and just ride?

those waves. Yeah. So I do like to start almost all of my practices with a pause, and it doesn't have to be as still and meditative. You could do it with your eyes open, you could be walking, you could be actively moving. But I like to invite everybody to pause, even if it's just for 10 to 30 seconds, and really tune in and ask themselves what do they need to attune Or what do they need to do to attune in that moment, because each moment it's going to be slightly different And sometimes just the act of pausing is going to guide us into a place of natural attunement and then we don't. We're like, actually I feel good, and then you can move on and like put it behind you and just you're good to go in that moment. But other times it's like okay, i'm noticing there's a discord between me and this person I'm talking to and you know asking yourself and reflecting what can I do, rather than just diving into action and being like you know, like, oh, i'm going to try this, or I'm going to try that, or I'm overthinking this And I really want to make this work. So let me just try and do something really quick. And that's why I invite the pause to actually be like okay, ground the energy and actually feel into what you need and then take an intentional action from there. If you feel like an action is needed And you know examples of that could vary, and I always guide people through trusting the first thing that comes up for them. So oftentimes, what when we take a pause and we tune in with our own bodies first? what's going to come up may not logically make sense to the mind, like the mind wants to like lay it all down, it wants to rationalize. But oftentimes the first thing that pops into our mind may not be the most rational. It may be like I need to like go over to that field and like throw rocks for a minute. Or I need to like just like get up out of my chair and like shake it out. Or I need to like lay in child's pose. Or I need to like wrap my arms around myself. Like I need to feel held and I'm not feeling seen or held by this person or the situation. And this is where the work that I do with somatics really comes in, because oftentimes when we need to attune to ourselves or to another situation to another and practicing that, there is like a. There's a physical, energetic release that needs to happen as well. There's that attunement that needs to happen in a, in a somatic like through making contact and moving something in the body first. So long story long, that's really, you know, guiding us back. The, the pausing is really inviting in somatic practice in a lot of cases. But it's going to depend, you know, situation to situation, what you feel like you need in that moment.

What is somatic practice? Something I know bits about and I feel like it's growing more and more of a buzzword lately. Do you mind sharing a bit about somatics and what those practices look like?

Yeah, absolutely So. Somatics somatic the word by definition, means of or relating to the body. So a lot of times you'll see just the word by itself, soma, which is just body. That's roughly defined as body. So somatics is like how can we relate to the body? and oftentimes that's through physical practice, but it's, it's more, it's more subtle and intentional in form. So it's not like, you know, doing a really active exercise would be defined as somatic, like going out and playing soccer or, you know, doing, doing like really vigorous, not necessarily intentional movement. Somatics is more about how can we intentionally use movement to focus on our internal experience, using the physical body as a means to go inward and connect inward. So a lot of the somatic practices there's a couple different methodologies with it, so this is just a really general definition of it. A lot of the practices that I incorporate into my work are based off of the somatic experiencing method, which was developed by Dr Peter Levine, and it's essentially through using these subtle body practices as a way to encourage a completion of an activated nervous system response. So when we're in that activated mode where we're feeling fight, flight, freeze or fawn, any of those four and we need to bring it to completion, which oftentimes is a you know, when we're feeling burnt out, when we're having that tendency to subsume, we want to move back into attunement. But that triggered nervous system state needs to be completed first. So practicing the somatic exercise can bring us to a place of completion where then we can get back into that parasympathetic, that rest and digest state, to make an intentional action, whether that be to have a conversation with somebody to let them know how you need to be seen or heard, if that's what's triggering you, or you know if it's an external, if it's in your stimulus, if it's in your environment, it's, you know, deactivating, calming down the nervous system, so that we can then move forward and be like how can I coexist in this chaotic environment without feeling triggered or anxious or stressed out, whatever's coming up?

Yeah, I love that way you talked about somatics and like I talk about this a lot in terms of stress and burnout. It's like our body's natural responses are a good thing, like our stress isn't bad. Our body's response to stress isn't bad. It's just our body originally like when there was a stressor, it was fight or flight. You know there's freeze or fun, but you had a way to move through that energy but, often today we get these like micro stressors or things around us that are nonstop and we don't, and we're sitting all day. We're taught to control our emotions. Don't do this like, be, sit, work with it, don't show it. But by allowing that energy to move through our body, then our hormones can recalibrate, our body can return to its equilibrium. But without that physical movement and release in some shape or form, our body's holding on to it and it's creating imbalance within us in a very profound way. Yes, so thank you for sharing that and shutting light into the importance of, like you know, giving lists, just like you said at the beginning, like do the first thing that comes to your mind. It might sound really crazy, but it's probably really good for you.

Exactly when you feel, you heal, you know when you really let yourself feel. And a part of that feeling is letting it move through your body. All feeling, you know, begins within the body and we're taught in modern society to stuff it all away, to bottle it all in and maybe only to feel it in a time, place or situation that's socially appropriate. And yes, there's a virtue to that, you know, because you don't want to instill more trauma or more, you know, nervous system activation by just letting yourself have a big release in public. But if that's not the case, it's like, let yourself release it as soon as you're able to, as soon as you're in a situation that feels safe for you to do so. And, yeah, it's just so important to let it move through you, even if you don't, even if it looks silly, even if you don't necessarily know what is right. You don't need to know what's right, what the right form of movement is. Your body already knows. So just kind of let it, let it go through you and it's going to feel awkward at first, but the more you continue to practice those things and allow that intelligence of the body to come through, the easier it's going to be, the more streamlined it's going to be, and it'll just start to become second nature to move it through you rather than just holding on to it and I guess that's one of the real powers of that pause that you're talking about too, because it gives us the space to attune and listen to what the body is telling you and to tap into that teacher.

And by calibrating your body, calibrating your internal systems, then you're better able to interact and engage with the world around you yes, exactly that's.

That's really the main reason why why we pause. I mean one like we all deserve a break. You know, we all deserve to take pauses. We all really need that. We, everybody lives a busy lifestyle nowadays in one way or another. And you know, the pause, the practice of the pause, is so vital and important in that way, but at the core of it, it's a way for us to reconnect with what's going on inside. You know, we're constantly stimulated by so, so many other external things in our lives conversations, social media, digital flashes and images and videos and sounds and smells and you know, all of these things are constantly coming at us and we're challenged every day to either absorb them into ourselves, subsuming them, which is when we what we tend to do, when we feel burnt out because we have less of that perceptual awareness and less of that sense of boundary and or whether we're going to attune to them and harmonize with them. And you know, part of that attunement is also can also be some deflection, you know, and setting a healthy boundary and being like I'm not gonna let this come in in this moment or I don't need to let it come in, and you know also, i don't need to dance with it anymore. Like my part of my attunement is recognizing. Like that I see and I feel and I sense what's happening over here and I'm not letting it come into my field. So, yeah, there's a lot there, yeah.

How do you I feel like there's a parallel here with attunement helps us tap into our own bodies and that inner wisdom and way of healing. And I'm curious too with your work with herbalism, how working with and, almost, I guess, attuning with it helps us attune with the natural world when we bring in these earth elements and these plant teachers and healers into our lives. Is there a parallel that speaks to you there that you want to lean into?

Yes, 100%. I mean plants are one of my biggest inspirations in the work that I do, and especially in light, you know, of this topic of attunement versus subsumment. And we can learn so much from plants, not just from an herbal sense, you know, by actually learning what they're good for and you know medicinal purposes and preparations, etc. Just from sitting with them and just from witnessing them and watching them in nature. Watching them, you know, looking at the plan out your window and noticing how it's interacting with the elements around it and what's happening there. And you know noticing the texture of the leaves or like the sturdiness of the bark or the stem, or if there's like a prickly nature to it. You know if there's a certain intuitive color change that happens throughout the seasons. It's like noticing those things, not from like an analytical, like just why is it doing what it's doing biologically? but what, like how can I relate this back to my life? You know what is this planet? What can I learn from this plant in this moment? And you don't even have to necessarily like ask yourself that, so much as just allow yourself to experience it, and sometimes the question can help prompt us to go deeper with it. But you know plants can teach us how to create healthy boundaries in our life. Or you know when we need to absorb the elements into us versus having a healthy boundary. Or when you know we're going to learn to coexist with the ecology and the environment and the world around us. We're learning to attune, or you know when we're. You know, naturally we're going to proliferate in certain areas over others and there's a reason for that. So a big part, i guess, of my, the knowledge I've received from plants in this topic, is just through plant meditation and through sitting with them and witnessing and observing and coming from a place of mindfulness and non-judgment and that observant quality and then bringing that back into myself and you know, noticing that in my own pauses, what's happening in my inner world, and slowing down and practicing attunement with that plant. You know plants are one of my favorite other things to attune with because they prompt us to naturally slow down and you know you don't see a plant rushing to make the bus on time. It's like it's just existing in its own nature and we can also do the same. So there's a certain intelligence there that can be shared through no words at all. Just, you know, sitting and experiencing and practicing that art of attunement with the natural world, with another plant, definitely.

I feel like it's. We are also. We are from the earth, we are of the earth, We are plants. You know we are one with them. They're a part of us and I think there's something we really missed out on a part of ourselves We neglect when we see ourselves as humans are separate from nature and this natural world. But when we can get curious about this connection and getting to know almost this other part of ourselves there's I don't have the words for it It's just like ineffable quality that we just kind of come back into of. For me, it just feels like I feel more whole inside. When we really delve into that Part of me is like I just want to run away and live in the woods and be away from all the screens and all the things. But it's also like, well, we're here in this world right now and this is what it's like right now. So if I'm not going to be totally subsumed in nature, like if I'm not backpacking or doing these things, how can I attune to it in my day today? in my natural environment, whether that's, like you said, just kind of like sitting with the plants, and for you know, you could do those 10 seconds of that pause of just like take your shoes off, feel your feet on the ground or rest your hand on a plant or just start to integrate it more and more. But I think there's something we miss when we think that we have to be either or with nature as well. I think there's an attunement we can find in the way we engage in the day to day with. We are in this life and this is what it looks like right now and how can we pull in those other elements of us and the natural world as well.

Yes, i fully agree and it's totally possible. You know, and it's I almost love practicing these things more or so in an urban environment. I live in a city currently. I've gone through periods of my life where I've lived completely immersed in nature deep in the mountains, and it's more of a welcome challenge for me to practice it in an urban environment. And in fact the more you actually practice it in those situations, you start to notice how much nature really is around you, even though there's skyscrapers or there's a lot of urban development and paved roads etc. You start to really hone in on the beauty and the pace of nature in those little pockets where they're happening. You're magnetized to it almost The more that you start to attune to nature and really have that be your intention and your focus, and they're highlighted in a different way in those urban environments. Even if you live in a small apartment in a dense city, you can step outside for one to two minutes in the middle of your work day and just watch the tree on the street in the wind and practice attuning to that. Notice that juxtaposition between the swirling city that's. Everything is hustle and bustle and people are moving fast and there's flashing lights and sounds and smells and you're focused on this one natural tree, just existing amidst all of it And recognizing. What can you learn from that? When your life feels chaotic and everything feels swirling around you and you feel bombarded by overwhelm and you're feeling burnt out, how can you embody and attune to the energy like that tree is in that moment? Of course, it's second nature not to be punny, but it's second nature for the tree to do that. There's something we can learn from plants that I feel like is often diminished as woo-woo or just like there's a whole tree hugger population. That's like learn something from trees. And it's like, yeah, there's a reason they're saying these things and, yes, there's a way we can translate it to the modern human in society that feels more. What's the word acceptable? I guess that's easier, more easily understood, but there's a simplicity to it. You can notice and attune these things when you're on the bus, when you're in public transit, when you're stuck in traffic in your car, and it's a limiting belief to think that we can't practice attunement with nature or connect with nature when we're busy or when we're in an urban environment. I challenge people to use that as an impetus to actually learn how to practice the pause in those moments and notice how it transforms your life and your ability to handle stress and really to be the one that sits and attunes in the face of chaos, rather than just letting it sweep you off your feet or off your center of gravity, like you were talking about.

Yeah, i feel like what you were saying, with just this wisdom that nature holds, just resonates with me so much of like the why this podcast is here is for me, it's this experience of like all these things that help us tap back into our inner wisdom, and I think nature. More and more, I'm reminded of how much there is that wisdom and that inner wisdom we get when we witness nature. It brings us back to this deep wisdom within ourselves, Just like you said. Like It's so we do live in such a fast-paced society, but that doesn't mean we can't hold those other things here too. So the more we can integrate this work that you're talking about, of witnessing, really being with the world, the fullness of the world, not just being, like, fixated on, like I'm doing this, this and this today, like opening our eyes to the full scope of what's here can help us really attune to that inner wisdom within our bodies, with the natural world and what's happening around us.

Exactly, yeah, and that's one of the best benefits of this practice, you know. It's helping us become more empathetic, more attuned humans in the world, you know, and if we're able to relate to each other more easily, you can build more powerful relationships with one another, really more deeply connect to what we each, what our own unique gifts are in the world, and that's a really beautiful thing, and it can be so simple to get ourselves there. How do you?

I think my inclination often is like when I really want to connect with someone this is kind of going back to earlier in the conversation I'm like thinking I want to lean in, i want to be subsumed to really connect with you, but how can in fact attuning help us deepen that connection with ourselves, with the people around and with that natural world?

Like how can attuning help over instead of subsuming in those moments?

Yeah, and how would that be more beneficial in that instance?

Yeah. so in the moment I always think of when you're falling in love with somebody you know, this is always a good example Or you're really connecting with somebody new and you just want to eat them up. You're like I don't want to leave your side, like I'm so into you and I just want to dissolve into the other person and it feels good. So maybe you check in with yourself and you're like, no, this is yummy, i just want to stay in this place of subsuming. Maybe you're not even consciously calling it that. But then you know, think how you felt sometime down the road. You know, after you know, maybe your relationship is starting to grow a bit. and then you're starting to feel like maybe you've lost your sense of self within, that You've completely dissolved in the other. And then that's when you start to foster maybe anxious, avoid an attachment patterns where you're like I just need to like, get out of this space with this person. I can't be around them anymore. All of a sudden, i need space so that I can figure out who I am anymore. Or maybe you feel really anxious, like the person needs space from you, and all of a sudden you're like well, i don't know who I am without you, can you just stay close by to me? And so, needless to say, it's like when we, when we, gravitate towards subsuming, especially in terms of relationship it's you know, it can be more beneficial to actually take a step back and practice attunement, especially early on, when it's our tendency to subsume into something that feels good in the moment and to take a breather and be like how do I, how am I reconnecting with myself And how am I maintaining my own access within? you know, the beautiful polarity and the connection and the attraction and everything that's happening right now. So that's. I would say that's one of the biggest benefits with practicing it, especially in relationship and especially in the you know the early, you know falling in love days.

Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much for taking the time to just lean into this conversation today and the weaving of subsuming and attuning and the many ways that it can unfold. Do you mind sharing how people can stay in touch with you and support you and your work?

Yes, well, thank you so much for having me, holly. This was such a fun conversation And so one of the best ways to stay in touch with me in the moment is to subscribe to my sub stack. It's called the Sacred Paws sub stack And this is the place where I'm sharing more musings along these lines. You know talking about more topics in. You know the subtle layers of attunement and subsumement, and you know how slowing down and noticing things within ourselves, within the world around us, can then facilitate our healing. So you know part of that space is sharing. You know some of my writing and my thoughts and my musings on these layers, and then part of it's also sharing on the herbs themselves. So how can we actually use plants, physically and energetically, as guides to help bring us back deeper into a place of healing, into slowing down and just savoring life? So you're welcome to. There's options for paid subscription and for free subscription, so I'm sure Holly will link that below. I also offer a, an online course called the Sacred Paws. So if you're looking for a deeper dive into some of the work that we talked about here and actually receiving more intimate guidance and tools to move through and regulate a really activated nervous system. If you're struggling dealing with stress and anxiety. It's a four week online course that can help really implement the framework of the Sacred Paws, really learn and understand what's happening in the body when stress and anxiety comes up on a physical, mental, emotional and a more spiritual relational level, and then how can we embody that. So really, we'll be teaching you the actual practices, the somatic practices there. You'll be guided through different herbs every week and there'll be a chance for sharing and relating directly with me too. So those are two of the biggest ways to stay connected. I do also share some of my work through Instagram, some more of my writing, so you're welcome to follow me there, subscribe to my email newsletter And, yeah, i think that's that those are some of the main ways to stay connected.

And all the Heather links will be in the show notes below. I definitely recommend subscribing to that sub stack and checking out her really wonderful work. Thank you so much. Yeah, there's so much more I want to keep talking about. I'm controlling myself.

Well, grateful for the space. Thank you for facilitating And yeah, if you've got any questions, you Holly personally or you know any of our listeners out there. Just send me an email, drop me a line and happy to chat.

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