Beyond the Childfree Debate (Part 2): The Truth About Care with Elissa Strauss

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:13
Speaker 1
Hi everyone, and welcome back to how the Wise one grows.

00:00:08:15 - 00:00:39:17
Speaker 1
So our number one episode on the podcast so far was episode 102, about the decision to have kids or remain child free with Kelton McGuire. And after that conversation was released, I got a little bit of feedback from listeners that it veered on the child free side. So I decided that we should dive deeper into this conversation around what happens if and when you step into the role of caregiver or parenthood, and how it transforms you.

00:00:39:18 - 00:01:07:21
Speaker 1
With Alyssa Strauss Alyssa Strauss is the author of When You Care The Unexpected Magic of Caring for Others. She is a journalist, essayist, and opinion writer, and contributes to publications like The New York Times, The Atlantic, glamor, and more. She's been a contributing writer for CNN, where she covered the culture and politics of parenthood, as well as for slate, where she wrote on feminism and motherhood.

00:01:07:23 - 00:01:39:00
Speaker 1
Alyssa and I had this conversation about the importance of caregiving and what happens when you care. The day after the 2024 presidential election, and it honestly left me feeling so much more empowered and supported than when we started the conversation. I think it's a really important conversation to be having, and care is important now more than ever. So I am so excited to share this conversation with you.

00:01:39:02 - 00:02:03:00
Speaker 1
But before we get started, let's take a moment to land here together with a deep breath. So notice where your body makes contact with the earth and take a big breath in. And a big breath out.

00:02:03:02 - 00:02:06:06
Speaker 1
Alyssa, thank you so much for being here.

00:02:06:08 - 00:02:10:04
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation.

00:02:10:06 - 00:02:25:01
Speaker 1
Do you mind sharing a bit about your background and relationship with care? I have been obsessed with your book When You Care, so I feel like I know a little bit through that, but I would love for listeners to just get a bit of your background, in relationship with care.

00:02:25:03 - 00:02:55:01
Speaker 2
So my primary care experience of my life, with a few exceptions, is caring for my two sons who are now 12 and seven. I had my 12 year old and twin 2012, and I lived in Brooklyn, New York at the time. And as I talked about in my book, I was not ambivalent about having kids. That part felt to me like something I clearly wanted to do.

00:02:55:03 - 00:03:23:04
Speaker 2
But I was very ambivalent about how much of like, a mom to kind of to be and how much to let motherhood in is part of who I am, how I view the world. And at the time, and I think in many ways, a conversation shaped and grown. But there's still some of this. There was a real sense that, like, it's a risk for a woman to have kids because like, if we don't, we don't, you know, actively resist.

00:03:23:04 - 00:03:52:05
Speaker 2
Like the care will kind of swallow us whole. It'll take over our identities. It'll take over even of that. If it's not our identities, practically speaking, it'll take over our lives. So I really thought I could kind of create a vision of the world in which I could have the kid, but not let that happen. And what happened to me is that I found out through caring for Auggie, my first born through really turned was turned down, probably around age to when he really started talking.

00:03:52:05 - 00:04:13:11
Speaker 2
It wasn't a love at first sight or like a epiphany at first sight experience at all. But as my relationship with Auggie really took off, I realized that, like, I was really diminishing care in my life, but I thought that it was something that if it takes over, quote unquote, you lose yourself to it or it takes over your identity.

00:04:13:13 - 00:04:16:02
Speaker 2
That's a loss, right? That's a bad thing.

00:04:16:04 - 00:04:16:13
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:04:16:13 - 00:04:39:05
Speaker 2
And for years, I wrote so much about why we don't have paid leave and universal universal, affordable and reliable childcare, elder care, why maternity care stinks in this country. So I was always angry at the world for not valuing care, and it took me, honestly couple of years of parenting to realize that, like, I myself wasn't really valuing care.

00:04:39:07 - 00:05:06:20
Speaker 2
I myself wasn't really curious about care as this experience. Not for everyone. That's it, you know? And, not certainly not everyone has to do it to become a more insightful or better person, but it is actually a path to wisdom for me, it really was a path to for me. I did so many epiphany seeking, things, you know, my 20s before I had kids meditation retreats and psychedelics and hiking tall mountains.

00:05:06:20 - 00:05:35:13
Speaker 2
And those are all beautiful experiences. And I'm so glad we live in a time where women can do those things. And if a woman chooses to dedicate herself to those things and not have kids, great. You know, I have absolutely no problem. I am not here with a pro nadella's agenda. I'm just here to say that I think our culture has a real blind spot to the kind of spiritual, philosophical, psychological, intellectual depths of care.

00:05:35:15 - 00:05:58:09
Speaker 2
And I myself had it as a feminist mom, having her first kid in 2012. And I would like to help us see that and help us understand care as not just a burden, not something that swallows your identity, not something that makes you boring and dull, but actually can be a truly expansive experience.

00:05:58:11 - 00:06:32:21
Speaker 1
I feel like you talking about that feels like all of my thoughts around motherhood and care, or like the fears that I've had going into it. And that was like a really big part of what sparked this conversation and that kids are child free episode. I shared that like, my biggest fear of becoming a parent is like losing myself in motherhood and like feeling like once I have a child and if I have a child, like I will be doing that all the time.

00:06:32:21 - 00:07:01:22
Speaker 1
A lot of what you're saying like that, your identity goes into that. And I heard from other listeners a lot about what you were saying of, like, how it's not exactly like that. And I kind of want to share a bit of one clip of what a listener said just to kind of reflect on that. But to me, it's really seemed that there is this myth of losing yourself in motherhood.

00:07:01:22 - 00:07:22:18
Speaker 1
So I'm so excited to dive into like, what is on the other side of that coin and how care is kind of at the root of that, in that framing, in the way we think about parenthood, because I know so many people who hold a similar sentiment. So this is what one listener had to share.

00:07:22:19 - 00:08:01:23
Speaker 3
So I wanted to just comment on this idea of losing yourself in motherhood and, suggest that perhaps lost or not lost is sort of a false dichotomy, that, there is a great space in between. That's powerful for change and growth and transformation. If we can get beyond our sort of cultural idea that we're supposed to get back to our pre-baby self as quickly as possible, I know for me.

00:08:02:00 - 00:08:31:13
Speaker 3
When my children were small, it felt very right to be close to them a lot of the time. And being with them and watching them and really just observing them and learning how to care for them felt more powerful and more important than doing the practices or the activities that had brought me joy and grounding and a sense of identity in my pre child world.

00:08:31:17 - 00:09:07:07
Speaker 3
And I think I heard someone say once, let yourself be lost. And I think there's a real wisdom in that, that that leaning into this new human in the process of caring for them can be an agent of change and growth for the parents, for me, you know, when my youngest was two, I felt much more able to sort of begin to integrate my pre-baby self and my post-baby self into this latest version of who I am.

00:09:07:09 - 00:09:13:07
Speaker 3
But that's a slow and ongoing process that took time.

00:09:13:09 - 00:09:41:21
Speaker 1
I'm just kind of curious. Like based off of your experience, how did that shift kind of unfold like you sounded like for you and maybe similar to this listener like early on, maybe it did feel really immersed in like, this is the chapter I'm in right now. It's just like so demanding in all of these ways that maybe you do get a little like quote unquote lost, but then maybe lost is more in evolution.

00:09:41:21 - 00:09:46:12
Speaker 1
What was that experience like for you?

00:09:46:14 - 00:10:11:17
Speaker 2
I love the way she framed it, or at least my my interpretation of the framing, because it's a really wonderful and rich distinction. Right? Like the fear is losing yourself to parenthood, to motherhood, right? This idea that like, it's irrevocable, like forever, you will just lose yourself. Like there's that's a loss, right? Losing yourself when you lose yourself to mother.

00:10:11:19 - 00:10:48:14
Speaker 2
Versus being lost in motherhood can actually be this very generative expansive time. And it's you know it's a difference of losing your favorite sweater. Right. You left it at the airport. You're never getting it back. You've tried forever to call lost and found clearly not happening. It's lost. Right. Or you're in a forest and like you have, you know that you have a sense of, like, I don't really know where I am, but I can see where the sun is, and I have time and I'm going to make my way back, and I can just enjoy that aliveness we feel when we don't quite know where we are, right?

00:10:48:14 - 00:11:07:00
Speaker 2
When we travel to a different city and we're walking around and we're just hitting the streets and we're not following Google Maps, and when we have to find our way back to our town, we'll get there. But just that, like sometimes being lost is a beautiful, expansive thing. Hard and challenging and stressful for sure when it comes to motherhood and particularly new motherhood.

00:11:07:06 - 00:11:37:22
Speaker 2
So I just I'm just actually in love with that right now. Like the difference between losing yourself and being lost and one being kind of a done deal and a closure, and the other actually having these expansive possibilities. I think for me, well, I guess I'll start here because, you know, my kids are 12 and seven now, and I think so often the motherhood conversation gets kind of, framed as the first six months or the first year, maybe the first couple of years, and understandably so.

00:11:37:22 - 00:12:05:14
Speaker 2
That's a time of just like deep transition. As a, you know, as someone becoming a mom, it's a time when children's needs are so demanding. I mean, I always say, like the my favorite stage and moment in transition period and parenthood is when I could, like, turn my back away from my kids. And I didn't worry about them killing themselves like that is that is a liberation moment.

00:12:05:16 - 00:12:33:14
Speaker 2
So I think, you know, it's it's I'm just trying to both remember what it's like to have that baby to really go back to that time while also honoring. But it's such a long story. Motherhood, right? I at least at 18, if not, of course, much longer. So to go back to write the early parenthood phrase, sorry, the early parenthood phase.

00:12:33:16 - 00:13:00:05
Speaker 2
I think for me, in many ways, my like, fortress I built for myself where I would have a kid. But now that motherhood ruined me, protected me, many ways, it actually allowed me to enter that more expansive, generative place because as part of my like, I'm not losing myself to this thing. I resisted a lot of the cultural pressures that are put on mom side.

00:13:00:05 - 00:13:00:11
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:13:00:13 - 00:13:05:00
Speaker 1
How did you do that? Like, what was that resistance like for you?

00:13:05:02 - 00:13:26:20
Speaker 2
I just was like, this is the patriarchy. You know, I honestly, really. So, like, I probably wrote too many mean blog posts about doulas, like, I, I wasn't that nice. I wasn't this wasn't fair. I just want to be clear. But there was part of that was protective for me. So it's very like decided, like, I'm not going to do this attachment parenting thing.

00:13:26:22 - 00:13:48:23
Speaker 2
I'm not going to do natural childbirth. Like, I'm going to just make this as easy for myself as possible. I'm not, going to go to like, mommy and me classes or have go to mothers groups. I just want to clarify again, like, I don't think that I got this totally right, and I know a lot of friends had like beautiful support from their mothers group.

00:13:49:00 - 00:13:51:04
Speaker 2
So this is not an endorsement.

00:13:51:06 - 00:13:52:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, but.

00:13:52:06 - 00:14:12:01
Speaker 2
There was the silver lining that I just opted out of competition and fear and anxiety around like, who's, you know, whose kid is speaking first? Am I losing weight fast enough? Like, I just told myself that that is the page. I lumped everything into the patriarchy. And I was angry at it, and I closed the door on it.

00:14:12:03 - 00:14:30:05
Speaker 2
And I think, like today's version of that would be like, I wouldn't be on Instagram. I wouldn't be caring if I was like, I'm perfectly quote unquote gentle parent. I wouldn't be like making I mean, maybe I'd make my own baby food because sometimes, honestly, it was really cheap and easy with the immersion blender. But I wouldn't be like putting all those pressures on myself, you know?

00:14:30:05 - 00:14:55:17
Speaker 2
So I really, I really had a sense like, that's all the patriarchy. And through that I was devaluing care and devaluing community. But there's all the patriarchy. I'm making this easy for myself. So I think that, again, it was a double edged experience, but it really helped me find my own way and toss aside a lot of the cultural scripts that I think, feel really heavy for a woman and can be like.

00:14:55:17 - 00:15:11:09
Speaker 1
That's like a part of the resistance of it too, is like, you just feel like it's being forced on you in this way where you're like, well, let me decide what I actually do and don't want. And yeah, just that, like forcing of you makes you want to like, push away. So I definitely understand.

00:15:11:11 - 00:15:11:15
Speaker 2
That.

00:15:11:16 - 00:15:13:07
Speaker 1
Version.

00:15:13:09 - 00:15:47:14
Speaker 2
So I think what I realized was like I kind of drew and this is, you know, a funny metaphor, but the baby out with the bathwater. Like, I kind of realized that I was like, rejecting this whole, like, right, oppressive, being pushed on us vision of care. But in the process, I was also still diminishing. So then I was like, yeah, I had, you know, I as like I said, my son really started talking and I had it sounds so obvious, but it's it's still such a deeply like philosophical reckoning when you realize that other people are different than you.

00:15:47:17 - 00:16:10:01
Speaker 2
And it's something we all struggle with. I think our whole lives are like really trying to and counter the other to really trying to see and understand the other and not impose our own subjective experience on this other. The work of a lifetime. I don't think anyone will ever master it. But yeah, it it is essential for human connection.

00:16:10:03 - 00:16:38:18
Speaker 2
And there is something for me about being in this deeply like dependent, ongoing care connection with my son where he just relied on me in so many ways. That really forced me to have a deep encounter with another in a way that honestly, I had never done through friendships or through romantic relationships. And so around that time, I realized I was like, all right, you know, I'm still not like breastfeeding till age three.

00:16:38:18 - 00:16:58:09
Speaker 2
Again, if it works for you all, I'm post all that era. Yeah, but I'm not going to get caught up in this like version of motherhood that I feel like would really hold me back professionally or dictate who I'm supposed to be friends with or anything like that. But that doesn't mean that there's not something here, you know?

00:16:58:09 - 00:17:21:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, that there's not like a there's not something actually so potent in motherhood. And I guess I see a lot of the work in my book, or at least my effort is to try to, like, detangle motherhood from the patriarchy, like, not buy into this. The kind of patriarchal sentiment vision of motherhood where it's like beautiful and easy and it's a woman's destiny.

00:17:21:05 - 00:17:42:13
Speaker 2
And if you don't want to do it, you're something's wrong with you. And if you're struggling with it, then again, something's wrong with you. You should. If you need support, something's wrong with you. Like, get rid of that. Let's make it. You know, imagine a world women can still, you know, work and care and have active, free, creative lives and care.

00:17:42:13 - 00:18:03:23
Speaker 2
Like, I'm in the book camp and we take a little bit of what I see coming off and from more traditional patriarchal cultures of like the real like seeing care as this deeply sacred experience, you know, and seeing care. Maybe if we don't use the language of sacredness, but it is an expansive experience as an opportunity for growth.

00:18:04:00 - 00:18:16:14
Speaker 2
And it's like, I'm greedy. I am greedy in this way, and I want us to have I want women's true liberation, and we're still fighting for that, as we know. And I want us to see care in all its fullness.

00:18:16:16 - 00:18:35:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I find that to be like, such a beautiful kind of juxtaposition that you hold in your book. And, and I love that you're speaking to that here because it does, on some level feel like, like, okay, I have to like, push this away to be like, all right. No, to the patriarchy and the all of these oppressive things.

00:18:35:20 - 00:19:01:14
Speaker 1
And we can also have there is so much expansion and beauty and depth. And like before when you were explaining, like getting lost, it almost sounds like going on like a deep, deep hike or like, a Mecca of some sorts. And we don't have to close ourselves off from that either. Like almost pushing it away is like serving maybe some of what the patriarchy wants to like.

00:19:01:14 - 00:19:06:05
Speaker 1
How can it be an immersive experience that we define and is entirely.

00:19:06:10 - 00:19:06:18
Speaker 2
Our.

00:19:06:18 - 00:19:45:00
Speaker 1
Own? And something that someone sent and then I want to touch on and just like speaking into motherhood a little bit more before we dive into care as a whole. Is with that, I feel like for my generation, and, and so many women, there's like this pressure to do it all. Like, now, it's not only should you, like, take care of the family and all of my my friends who are moms right now, TikTok and Instagram are just like making their mind spin with all the things like, oh my gosh, I'm ruining my child.

00:19:45:00 - 00:20:01:18
Speaker 1
If I'm not doing X, Y, and Z all the time, it just does seem so overwhelming. So there's like such pressure, so much information out there about all the shoulds that you should be doing. And then on top of it, there's like, for me, I'm like, yeah, I want to work. Like I want to be me. I want to be full.

00:20:01:18 - 00:20:11:09
Speaker 1
I want to like, have all these other things too. So I want to share one clip from a listener, that touches on that to hear your perspective.

00:20:11:11 - 00:20:46:10
Speaker 4
So one story or narrative I kind of told myself about motherhood is that I will still be able to be, do and have it all. So I'll be able to be this very present mother who's able to make the lunches as well as kind of grow and succeed in my corporate career, and then have, you know, all this self-care and me time and clean house and I just feel like, you know, another kind of narrative that's kind of been more prevalent and coming to light is just like, hey, that might be pretty toxic to think that you have to be and do it all.

00:20:46:12 - 00:21:20:03
Speaker 4
And I'm just really interested in like, how do we set really realistic expectations for ourself going into this new phase of motherhood, especially considering that, you know, we don't know how we're going to handle things or how we're going to be, and things might shift. I think, you know, especially for someone who's very driven and has high expectations for themselves, you know, pretty much, you know, aggressive goals for where they want to be in their life, what's really realistic and how do we set ourselves up for success.

00:21:20:05 - 00:21:45:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. So just kind of like sitting with that note of like how. How do we not, like, put even more on our plate by being like, oh, I'm going to be the woman who does it all because there is a point where it is too much, and that's not a weakness, you know, how can we fill our cups and care and do all of these things?

00:21:45:22 - 00:22:12:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the first big note and I'm sure will not come as news to your listeners, right, is there's structural problems, you know, are structural problems that make us stressed out and we take them we perceive them as individual weaknesses. Right. We like we need the collective to help us care well for our children or whoever else we're carrying from.

00:22:12:19 - 00:22:36:02
Speaker 2
We cannot care on our own. So but when we buy into the myth that care is something that's small and simple, the picnic, you know, with the gingham blanket version of care, we're like, yeah, we should be able to do this on our own and do everything else because the patriarchy tricked us into thinking, is this like small, sweet thing instead of this like, big, fleshy, messy, challenging experience?

00:22:36:04 - 00:22:59:11
Speaker 2
And and and as such does not give parents or caregivers adequate support. So I think we need to think structurally. I think that's the first thing like, you know, do we have paid leave for every parent in this country? Is paternity leave standard? Because let me tell you, with one baby, my husband didn't have paid leave and the other he did.

00:22:59:11 - 00:23:23:03
Speaker 2
And that was night and day. I like, I like if I was like, you know, I had a word document, I would just be like folding, underlining, italicized exclamation points. Like, I can not overemphasize how fundamentally different it was. And to think that he didn't have what the first kids really could have used in at the first kid, because that's the one where you're really like, I might kill this baby.

00:23:23:03 - 00:23:26:11
Speaker 2
I might kill this baby the second you're like, they're probably not going to die.

00:23:27:22 - 00:23:47:13
Speaker 2
So, like, right, so much of this is structural and some of that so much of this is requires like, deep political change. And then I think it is, you know, it is it's an encounter with your own value system. It's encounter with your own identity. There's that piece to, listen again. My career is super important to me.

00:23:47:13 - 00:24:07:17
Speaker 2
I basically never, especially because I'm freelance. I never had paid leave. I started working again. Not full time, but, you know, when both of my kids were six weeks, two years old. So, like, I'm not here saying motherhood is great, and that's the only thing women should do. That's not my M.O. at, my M.O. is that it requires a lot of big questions or asking yourself.

00:24:07:19 - 00:24:28:22
Speaker 2
Hopefully you have a partner that's sharing the care with you. I will put a plug in for my friend Eve Rosicky and her fair play method, because so much depends on having someone to share care with. If we are someone with a partner, and, you know, you have those conversations with the partner, you find systems that work in your household.

00:24:28:22 - 00:24:53:00
Speaker 2
You ask yourself questions about, like what does ambition look like for me right now? And honestly, you can make it work. Okay. I have to say, you know, I think there's I think if you find your way to answering these questions honestly for yourself, what does it mean to be a present parent? What does it mean to be an ambitious, profession and all like it?

00:24:53:02 - 00:25:27:15
Speaker 2
You have. You're not going to probably get to do everything all the time, but you can find your way to a workable system. And in a way, I know a lot of people that are big advocates for working moms. While they really do appreciate the emphasis on how hard it is to get that structural policy, whether government or workplace change happening, they're also a little wary of it, because when we only focus on how absolutely impossible it is to be a working mom and a mom shows up to a job interview, a mom is, you know, out for a promotion.

00:25:27:15 - 00:25:43:21
Speaker 2
It's kind of feed into implicit bias, and those moms are going to be less likely to get that job or get that promotion or be put on this project that they've been, like, dying to work on forever, but is a little more demanding and people will think they can't do it. So, you know, it's it as much as right.

00:25:43:21 - 00:25:55:21
Speaker 2
We want we hear about this burden. We hear how hard it is. I know so many working moms are like, it's not that hard. We're good. I got this like, let me, you know, don't have to work because you think that I'm totally falling apart.

00:25:55:23 - 00:25:56:08
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:25:56:08 - 00:26:18:03
Speaker 2
And then I think, like, the last piece of this is really just I don't know how to really get this into people's heads, but, like, it don't have to do with the Instagram influencers are telling you to do like. I did agree that I researched child psychology like they don't need one type of parent speaking in one type of voice.

00:26:18:05 - 00:26:43:16
Speaker 2
This year I heard about boo baskets for the first time in these. Like every year, there's something out there we're supposed to make our kids like gift baskets for Halloween. I mean, it's like you really can opt out. I mean, I opt out. I love my kids. My kids, actually, after a hard, long day off and restore me like snuggle time at night, even if they drove me nuts, you know, for two hours that night, snuggling in their bed like, centers me in calms me.

00:26:43:16 - 00:27:01:19
Speaker 2
It's just body to body, you know? It's this is biochemical. So it's like, that's that's the stuff that matters. Like, are you is there moments of joy and connection, like, are you giving them some structure because they need a little like, that's it. That's the job. You don't need the basket. You don't need be a gentle parent.

00:27:01:19 - 00:27:26:04
Speaker 2
I am not a gentle bear. Right. You know, so I think it's right. The structural piece, the remembering that actually there's many, many super awesome working moms right there that are like, are able to find a way to make it work. And then remembering that so much of was presented as somehow like necessary or ideal in terms of parenting approaches is just crap.

00:27:26:04 - 00:27:46:01
Speaker 2
I mean, it's not, it's it may work for some, but this idea that there's one size fits all, for everyone that is crap like you find your own way, you're your own person, your child's their own person. That's what this is. Absolutely unique and rare combination of humans in the world. Like you find your own way.

00:27:46:03 - 00:28:13:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. So it really sounds to me like you're saying with, like, on all fronts in terms of, like, how you choose to parent, how you choose to move through your career. Like all of these things become about, like what defining what that means for you, like defining what kind of parent you want to be in, what that looks like, what works for you, not receiving anyone else's like shoulds and taking out your choice instead on those areas.

00:28:13:02 - 00:29:06:03
Speaker 1
And I think the part that I'm really looking forward to diving into two is how important community and like systems of support are around this and how much slack there is. So just like sitting with that, I guess, like first like from your perspective, what is care? What does it mean to care? And then how can we especially I mean, we're recording this the day after the election when our politicians aren't supporting care, when the systems are around, us aren't supporting care, and the people who care, how do we make a shift towards supporting one another and care and creating these systems of support for ourselves and one another?

00:29:06:05 - 00:29:38:06
Speaker 2
So many good questions. I think for me, care is and it's like purest, simplest sense. It's kind of like active love, right? It's active affection. It's active awareness that we are all vulnerable, vulnerable, dependent human beings who need to be seen and in some capacity protected by others. So I think care is everywhere. And I think care is in our friendships.

00:29:38:06 - 00:29:43:18
Speaker 2
And I think care is in our schools and in our hospitals, particularly with nurses. Right.

00:29:43:20 - 00:29:58:03
Speaker 1
I think that's so important to name two, because we isolate it towards parenthood often in our minds. But when we're expanding it to the broader community, I think it does help see how necessary it is in all aspects of our lives.

00:29:58:05 - 00:30:29:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's it's the glue, I mean, of humanity. And it's not, you know, it's been so sentimentalized this kind of Kumbaya is and that nice thing. And to me, that totally, like, denies care. It's made because care's tricky and it's hard. And navigating whether it's your child or your friend, or someone you work with, navigating that piece of like, I love this person, I do have some obligation, but I don't want to fully like, give everything to them.

00:30:29:16 - 00:30:55:12
Speaker 2
I need boundaries. That is like truly, truly the hardest thing a human can figure out over the course of their life. Right? You know, to to really figure out how to protect the self, have those boundaries, be someone who craves freedom and autonomy. And also just like quiet and no one complaining about dinner, you know, just like from the little to the big, right?

00:30:55:14 - 00:31:18:01
Speaker 2
And someone who is a social animal who craves connection, needs connection, who has a sense of obligation. That's beautiful. You know, I think obligation, because it's often process through a really patriarchal lens that oppresses women. Like, we can be a little twitchy about it, and I get it, you know? But obligation is also just a beautiful part of being human.

00:31:18:03 - 00:31:38:03
Speaker 2
We are wired, in fact, to get like nice hits of dopamine when we meet someone with, like, this act of a kind of an act of love fueled by a sense of obligation. We're glad that our parents feel obligated to us. We are glad that our partners and friends feel a sense. And it's it's not. It's such a dirty word.

00:31:38:03 - 00:32:05:10
Speaker 2
Right? So these are things that are really make humanity work. These are if you look at evolutionary science, this isn't the side dish. And competitions like the main, you know, force behind the survival of the human species. Like this sense of sympathy, empathy, connection and care is absolutely essential for us. Tricky, thorny. Complicated. Again, it doesn't mean we're no one's happily ever after.

00:32:05:10 - 00:32:28:19
Speaker 2
But care is right in there. And so I think, yeah, we have to really see, like, you know, just like, name it and make it visible is part of it. Like, see, that's so much of what we do and who we are happens through care. Like we would not happen otherwise. And so there's right there's kind of this bigger care.

00:32:29:00 - 00:32:53:09
Speaker 2
But in my book I was really curious about a specific type of care, which is, you know, like, as I kind of little the shorthand version of it is like relationships. You can't just leave like, like you have a kid, you know, maybe you can, you can, but there's a big social cost or stigma. These are ongoing dependency relationships.

00:32:53:09 - 00:33:27:17
Speaker 2
So this isn't a teacher or a nurse. And this probably isn't your average friendship. This is when someone is really, truly dependent on you to survive. And perhaps thrive. And if you left them, that would have really negative consequences. It doesn't mean you can never leave. And I included paid caregivers in this as well, because they do well, even though it's not the same and they can leave their job, they do have ongoing dependency relationships with the people they care for.

00:33:27:18 - 00:33:48:16
Speaker 2
I spoke to nannies. I spoke to home care aides. This woman, June, who's in my philosophy chapter, a Jamaican woman who works as a home health care aide in the United States and has held, I think it's maybe five people's hands as they died, you know, so that's, that's that's some thick hair right there. So I included paid caregivers.

00:33:48:17 - 00:34:18:05
Speaker 2
I also included parents and family and friend caregivers to old and disabled individuals, and really just trying to see what the experience of having someone depend on us does to us. Like that was my big question after I had my big moment of realizing like, oh, okay, I have bought in to this notion that care is kind of a small, simple thing, when in fact that's this big, messy, transformative thing.

00:34:18:05 - 00:34:22:10
Speaker 2
And now I want to know more, and I want to understand what it does to us.

00:34:22:12 - 00:34:48:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's that's so, so fascinating. And I think that when you're talking about like, getting deeper into care and finding this distinction between, like the self and the other and like how that line becomes really blurred, I think can dive us into a bit of how it can become a really spiritual thing because it it kind of extends beyond logic a bit.

00:34:48:20 - 00:34:59:12
Speaker 1
And I think it shows this like great interdependence, with one another and, and something maybe deeper within ourselves as well.

00:34:59:14 - 00:35:25:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think right now, you know, if you spend time and kind of social TikTok and Instagram, social media psychology and therapy circles, we see so much talk about boundaries, right? We see so much talk about fear of codependency, of being overly entangled with others. And I really do understand why, you know, women were expected to just kind of be there no matter what for so long.

00:35:25:18 - 00:35:47:22
Speaker 2
And we want to now protect ourselves from people just expecting us to give, give, give, give, give without ever getting anything in return. But on the other side, like there is this loneliness crisis, people are deeply isolated. I was I took a Pilates class the other day, and at the end, this teacher does kind of like yoga teachers do.

00:35:47:22 - 00:36:09:16
Speaker 2
Writers give almost like a little sermon at the end, which I like, but yeah, I found it so fascinating because she was giving us she was basically giving us freedom. She said, do not worry what other people think about you. Do not worry about their expectation of you. And I get why that's liberating for a woman. But also there's a point where the correction can become an overcorrection.

00:36:09:22 - 00:36:33:16
Speaker 2
And if I'm really living my life not worrying what other people think about me, I'm living my life only concerned with setting up boundaries. I'm going to lose something. I mean, I'm probably going to be depressed because we're all first of all, because humans are social creatures. And I and I think that it's also like to make it so simple that we either give everything or give nothing is kind of a cop out.

00:36:33:16 - 00:37:06:13
Speaker 2
Because I think, again, the hard work of being human is finding yourself in that messiness, and it's a constant adaptation. And one of my favorite philosophers of Kenner talks about this is a dance, right? You're constantly if you're the parent, maybe you're kind of, you know, guiding your child dance partner. You're constantly responding to their moment. So there's no there's no one fix one answer to the eternal complexity that is human connection and care.

00:37:06:15 - 00:37:26:23
Speaker 2
But we do have to arrive, I think, with more curiosity than simply saying, I don't care what other people think about me, and I just need to create boundaries. And we got to go beyond that and be like, all right, I do need boundaries, but I also need connection. And humans are fundamentally dependent species, so I can try to have all these boundaries, all I want.

00:37:26:23 - 00:37:52:01
Speaker 2
But probably someone's going to need me during their life, whether or not I have kids, by the way, like your parent or friend, like most of us, and like I'm going to need someone else during my life, probably. I probably will get sick. So we kind of take it. I think it's time to take that next step beyond the endless giving, beyond the boundaries and find that place where we're just realizing, like, this is hard work.

00:37:52:04 - 00:37:56:04
Speaker 2
This is what I got to do. But this is also essential.

00:37:56:06 - 00:38:22:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, it almost sounds like that over correction space. Again, it's like, okay, we've been told we need to give, give, give, give, give all the time. Now we're saying just like no is a complete sentence or like kind of that same switch two of like, okay, we need to be in the home tending to this and that all the time to like, okay, now I'm going to do all of it, like be supermom or like push away all the mom things and like, no space for the in-between.

00:38:22:08 - 00:38:52:01
Speaker 1
But I think what you're saying really reminded me of there is this, we can do hard Things episode that was kind of talking about that boundaries and that like, no is a complete sentence. And they were saying like, well, when you say instead like no to something and then you say you're y like, I'm actually just like really drained right now, but like, did you ask me again, in a week or like, I just don't like activities that are with a bunch of people.

00:38:52:01 - 00:39:11:13
Speaker 1
But I would love to go on a walk with you at another time or something like that. You're actually like deepening connection, but you're also like you are holding a boundary in a way that's like, hey, this is like what I need, what nurtures me and what's my capacity. And I would still like to connect with you like I'm not just shutting you things off.

00:39:11:13 - 00:39:40:19
Speaker 1
And it had me thinking a lot about, I was with a group of women and we did like a part work meditation where we talked about, we focused on the part of ourselves that felt grounded, and then the part of ourselves that felt. Whatever heavy emotion was there, you know, your shadow part, the part that felt depleted or whatever, and you just went back and forth between the two and what kind of came up was that?

00:39:40:19 - 00:40:00:22
Speaker 1
Like, over time, the part of you that felt grounded could share its capacity with the part that needed support, and then that kind of like mirrored the web of like the people and the women in the circle of like, we can share our capacity with one another and it doesn't make us any weaker. It makes like the whole of us stronger.

00:40:00:22 - 00:40:36:07
Speaker 1
So if, like I'm having a shit day and I need support, I can reach out to a friend and get that support and then I'm feeling stronger. That person, if they were in capacity to give, they're feeling good too. And then it can continue and we can grow. And I think that like that kind of like web of support and sharing capacity and knowing our true capacity and being able to communicate, it has to be there could be a really key part of how we can have better care systems and how that can start within ourselves and our small communities, and then expand.

00:40:36:09 - 00:41:01:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think like kids need us to model that for them. It's not just, you know, we have to do it because we get tired, right? They're burnt out. Yeah. It's actually good for them. First of all and and models knowing yourself and models being honest with yourself about your feelings. But it also actually helps them really trust your care.

00:41:01:12 - 00:41:23:09
Speaker 2
Like it becomes more authentic when you're honest about the moments that you're just not up for it in some way or the other. And I think that this idea that we have to protect our kids from the moments when we're not feeling up to it is like, I mean, it's part of this oppressive version of motherhood, right? That I think we can opt out of.

00:41:23:09 - 00:41:50:18
Speaker 2
I really do that. We're supposed to constantly be available, that we're supposed to constantly be talking to them when they're like, right, you have to be like, you have to constantly be on. I think that my understanding of child psychology, and certainly my experience with kids as kids, they need they would rather have authentic. Yeah. And then performative and authentic you is going to run out of battery juice sometimes.

00:41:50:20 - 00:42:04:00
Speaker 2
That it's like so these things are in like unfortunate parts, right, of parenting kids, actually necessary parts of parenting kids.

00:42:04:02 - 00:42:18:23
Speaker 1
Thank you for that. When you look at like care in our society, what do you feel like is lacking the most. Like what what do you feel like we need to focus on most moving forward?

00:42:19:01 - 00:42:23:23
Speaker 2
I think I can't pick one because it's like asking a favorite comment.

00:42:24:04 - 00:42:25:16
Speaker 1
You can tell me. Yeah, yeah.

00:42:25:18 - 00:42:54:09
Speaker 2
This is the structural change and the cultural change. And I think they're connected and I my book is a culture change book. I'm not at the end of the day, I'm a humanities gal and the soul seeking, you know, human more than I am a white paper policy human. But we need that structural change. We need to understand that to have profound experiences with care, we cannot be totally burnt out by it.

00:42:54:09 - 00:43:19:01
Speaker 2
And right now, we're living in a system that makes it so easy to get burnt out by it. So I ran down my list. I'll do it one more time, but we need universal paid leave. We need universal, affordable, reliable and flexible. The flexible piece is important because I think you should get paid to stay home with your kid, or you should have a nice childcare center that doesn't cost you your monthly rent to send the child to.

00:43:19:01 - 00:43:50:15
Speaker 2
And we need it's the flexibility is key. We need better maternity care. We need things like public spaces that aren't just built for able bodied adults. This is such a huge, huge issue. When you have a kid and you realize suddenly just the public's not for you anymore, you know, like whether you can't wheel a stroller around, whether people give you also stink eye because you dared to bring your child to like, it's supermarket, you know, it's like, like the public should be for everyone.

00:43:50:17 - 00:44:21:13
Speaker 2
Everyone not just, you know, for, again, able bodied adults. So we need workplaces to understand that human dependency is an eternal reality and accommodate, their employees accordingly. And there's been a lot of movement in that it's not impossible. Like you can get your work done and be a present caregiver as long as your management is saying that and structuring the workflow accordingly.

00:44:21:15 - 00:44:48:09
Speaker 2
And then, yeah, let's jump to the cultural change. Because for me, this is just as important. And I think the culture change speeds will get us to the place where we have the political buy in to get those policies. So I think they feed each other. And for me, that is to finally see care and all its breath and all its fullness, you know, we had for so long this kind of sentimental fairy tale version of care.

00:44:48:11 - 00:45:30:15
Speaker 2
And then we had this kind of nightmare version of care. And to me, in a way, they all diminish care. And I, I would love to be in a culture that treats care stories with the same curiosity that it treats other stories. So let's say you're at a dinner party, and on one side of the table, there's a guy who just hiked Mount Everest, and then the other side of the table is a dad who just is on six month paternity leave and is the primary caregiver for a newborn or someone caring for their parent with dementia and my experience of humanity thus far tells me that if everyone kind of went around the table

00:45:30:15 - 00:45:53:02
Speaker 2
and did those quick intros, everyone would be like obsessed with Mount Everest guy and want to know everything. And and that guy would be seen as someone who does something really challenging. It's not easy, right? We know it's challenging, but filled with, like, meaning and somehow would make a why is and we would just want to hear about it because we assume that he understands something we don't understand or knows things we don't know.

00:45:53:04 - 00:46:20:12
Speaker 2
And I don't think the new dad or the adult child caring for a parent with dementia would be treated with the same curiosity and respect, and I am here to tell you, I've interviewed a lot of parents and caregivers like Mount Everest Sky. They're also doing something challenging. They're also learning so much about what it means to be alive, what it means to be a human, about themselves.

00:46:20:13 - 00:46:44:13
Speaker 2
They're going through it. They're also on that hero's journey. So I want a culture change that gets us to the place where we hear that someone's in a moment of intense care, and we look at them as someone from whom we could learn things and we respect. And again, I always go back to curiosity because we don't just need economic justice and dignity for people who care.

00:46:44:13 - 00:46:48:06
Speaker 2
We also need bacteria City.

00:46:48:07 - 00:46:58:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think maybe a big part of that cultural shift starts with getting curious within ourselves about like what our own stories are care of.

00:46:58:01 - 00:46:58:21
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:46:58:23 - 00:47:22:20
Speaker 1
Where they come from. Like what society says about care, who told us these stories and then like are those true. Do do we believe that to be true or do we have a different narrative that we want to explore or we want to rewrite for ourselves? And doing that within ourselves can help shift that in the collective?

00:47:22:22 - 00:47:51:01
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And I think it's it's hard, like, you know, we don't arrive at care with any kind of framework I think about. And, you know, you know, when I was during my undergrad and I took all the one on ones, right? Economics 101, philosophy 101, I was Vegas majors. I read all the great books, you know, like no one really mentions parenting or caregiving in any of those classes.

00:47:51:04 - 00:48:17:15
Speaker 2
It's this thing that's necessary for the survival of humanity. And it was just kind of left out of the human story as I was taught it as a like speaker, 18 or 19 year olds. Right. We didn't even hear about the economic Medicare. I didn't hear about the fact that humans aren't all just as like independent, rational, theoretical beings and philosophy class.

00:48:17:17 - 00:48:40:04
Speaker 2
I didn't read any great books. You know, I read so many of the quote unquote great novels from American and British, the American and British canon. None of them focused on someone going through the hero's journey. That is care. Not a single one. Right? So, like, we, we need to write those scripts for ourself. Like, now's the time it's happening.

00:48:40:04 - 00:49:07:21
Speaker 2
There's more and more beautiful care stories entering popular culture. It's happening. But we need to write those scripts. We need a care at the center of our understanding of self and something that when we when we feel the hard parts, we understand that it's not just hard that that that those struggles and those challenges are part of a much bigger story about ourselves and our lives.

00:49:07:23 - 00:49:29:11
Speaker 1
Yes. I think you're so spot on with that. And as we think about those greater stories about care, I just want to reflect something to listeners centered about your, framing of like, questioning care as a spiritual practice, because I think that kind of helps to create a bit of that shift in the way we look at it.

00:49:29:11 - 00:49:35:07
Speaker 1
So here is one final clip.

00:49:35:09 - 00:50:02:11
Speaker 4
Viewing parenthood as a spiritual practice is a really empowering way to go about it, and a really true way for me. But, it's easy to get into the slog of like, I need to do this logistics like guilt and making sure we're going on the schedule, like separating tasks within a family to make sure that everyone's feeling balanced and supported.

00:50:02:11 - 00:50:51:05
Speaker 4
All of that's really important. But if you only do that, then there's such a disconnect from the like, depth of what you can, what you really do get out of being a parent, which is, you know, that depth of joy, that depth of intensity, like the full spectrum of of human living and being able to be present with each of those feelings and be like full of gratitude for the whole experience, like all of that stuff I view as, a spiritual practice because, like, that's what it's all about, just feeling connected to the earth and to each other and to ourselves.

00:50:51:07 - 00:50:56:07
Speaker 1
Does that relate to how like how it's been a spiritual practice for you at all?

00:50:56:09 - 00:51:16:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. I think, I mean, the first thing it kind of brought to mind is there's so much talk. I actually, when I was having our new you, my, my, 12 year old, like, there was so there were books and articles, like, does parenting make you happier? There was a big debate, like our parents happier than non parents.

00:51:16:04 - 00:51:34:09
Speaker 2
And to me, that just misses the whole point. Happiness is great. You know, we want to be happy. I think, you know, when you dig into the data, sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Depends on the person. The main thing we know is that in countries where parents are supported by policies, they're happier than countries where there.

00:51:34:09 - 00:51:57:17
Speaker 2
But to me it's not happiness is, you know, and I mean, I can say it's nothing. We all want to be happy, right? But, you know, happy enough. But what parenting really brings us is meaning and moments of joy, right? And I think that's where it it's viewing it as a spiritual practice. It's a much better framework than viewing it as a like, get happy scheme.

00:51:57:18 - 00:52:19:16
Speaker 2
Right? You know, it's it's like, will this make me happier? Like it? Yes and no and everything in between. If parenting was just making you happy, I don't think you're really parenting, because that's really not what difficult relationships do to us. Right? And when I say difficult, I mean all real deep relationships. If you're really trying to connect with the human, it's probably going to be friction.

00:52:19:18 - 00:53:00:18
Speaker 2
I've never heard of an example. Let's just say where there is no friction and deep connection. But if someone had it, please let me know. And I think that when we view it through that sequence, because when we're seekers, which I think a lot of us with any kind of spiritual practice, whether it's through a very traditional religion with its own set of bound rituals and rules, or as someone who enters the spiritual plane through their own version of sacred practices and in their own kind of communities, either when we're showing up as seekers or showing up from a place of humility, that's I think that's what gets us out there, so

00:53:00:18 - 00:53:28:18
Speaker 2
to speak, on the on the field, you know, of this kind of spiritual seeking is, is is humility, curiosity vulnerable fear. Right. These are the these are the kind of feelings we generally bring to any kind of spiritual, religious practice. And those are the feelings that come out of parenting as well. And if and when we're in that kind of second mindset, we see the vulnerability.

00:53:28:18 - 00:53:53:07
Speaker 2
We see the fear. We see the humility, the not knowing, the, receptivity for, as really good things because we know that's that's an honest spiritual practice, right? Again, you show up knowing everything. I mean, I don't I don't think you're doing much digging and seeking if you if you already know it. All right. And you're just confirming what, you know, like it's, it's you have to feel a little off balance.

00:53:53:07 - 00:54:19:07
Speaker 2
And it's that same off balance ness that you do get from parenting that can take you somewhere else if you're willing to allow it, if you're willing to be in that place again, a vulnerability not knowing. And ask yourself these questions. Ask questions about life itself and view the experience as fodder for those questions and not the answer to those questions.

00:54:19:09 - 00:54:26:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, and maybe that ties back to that beginning of like getting lost in parent in.

00:54:26:09 - 00:54:27:00
Speaker 2
Motherhood.

00:54:27:00 - 00:55:03:00
Speaker 1
And parenthood, you know, can become a part of that mystery and a part of the beauty of that spiritual process, of what it means to care. And hopefully, the more that we learn to care and the value care, you know, with our most intimate relationships, the more that can weave out into our communities and our society and like make its way to policy and making the changes that need to be happening, happening so that we can care for one another in our communities.

00:55:03:02 - 00:55:20:13
Speaker 1
Especially right now. Melissa, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us on all of these things today. For those listening, how can we support you? How can we support your work? How can we support care in our communities.

00:55:20:15 - 00:55:46:03
Speaker 2
And make it right to stay with me? If you're care? Curious, I definitely recommend, my book When You Care The Unexpected Magic of Caring for Others, and which I really try to reinsert care and the center of the human story where it belongs and where it was denied a space by the patriarchy. On top of that, I have a Substack called made with care.

00:55:46:05 - 00:56:22:10
Speaker 2
I'm on Instagram at Alyssa Avery where I post all my freelance work. I had a piece in the Atlantic, a couple weeks ago about the philosophy of parenting. For example. And to jump to the community piece, I will do a quick and direct, request and call for donations to an organization called Caring Across Generations, which really inspired me by kind of naming this thing called care and acknowledging that while caring for children and caring for old, ill or disabled people is very different in many ways, there's still something to this care thing.

00:56:22:10 - 00:56:46:17
Speaker 2
And when we organize through the lens of care, we're more likely to get the kind of policies that we need to make meaningful difference. And parents and caregivers live. So once again, caring across generations. Follow them on socials. If you're able to donate, donate. They hustled their tissues off to get a care agenda. And to this election, they fought for Carmelo they thought would be most likely to deliver the care to.

00:56:46:17 - 00:57:13:11
Speaker 2
And I could promise you their work tonight and then and then I just want to remind everyone, because I think there's a lot of pressure, particularly on moms that feel like they're they, they that because they're so busy with their kids now, they're not good activists anymore. Right? They're not really fighting for change. And I, I just want to remind us that raising good kids is political, raising kids and know how to be honest and respectful of others.

00:57:13:13 - 00:57:39:19
Speaker 2
It's political raising kids who can be in a classroom with kids that are different than them and have curiosity and sort of fear, has political. All right. So just showing up for your kids is political, caring for your friends. Maybe there are other parents who are feeling stressed out sometimes, but also just caring for people in your life is also a huge piece of our collective of like, civic engagement, right?

00:57:39:19 - 00:58:18:06
Speaker 2
So I don't want to say that it's political and the like kind of that you're you're when you're caring for your kids, it makes you a Democrat or a Republican or. Right. It's not Partizan, but it's it's an investment in the collective, every act of care and as an investment in the collective and without the collective, without that sense of connection and trust, like democracies die, you know, this is so that's that is, you know, I'm trying to remind everyone today, like, if you're caring for yourself, if you're caring for others, if your caring for your kids, you're investing in care like you're you're moving the needle in the right direction.

00:58:18:07 - 00:58:34:22
Speaker 1
I know I needed to hear that today. Thank you again so much for your time. And just side I think I know my mind was spacey today. So thank you for following my conversation when my mind tense moment.

00:58:34:22 - 00:58:53:11
Speaker 2
You know it feels good to connect. Feel like it's it's kind of a living example of like if we can talk about can just, you know, it's like every time we utter the words we're summoning a little bit into existence, a world in which care matters. We we need to keep talking, you know, it's like we cannot stop.

00:58:53:11 - 00:58:54:07
Speaker 2
So.

00:58:54:09 - 00:59:17:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think especially today, I'm like, I need to be just getting more involved and figuring out the things. So this is kind of a a grateful thing to have, like, okay, here's something I can put energy towards and focus on and get involved with. Really appreciate you. Really appreciate your work. Love your book. I'm so grateful I got to talk to you.

00:59:17:08 - 00:59:30:20
Speaker 2
No, this was a real joy. I really, really appreciate it. The conversation and the framing and the kind of sensitivity and openness and lack of judgment that this is a big questions, big decisions. So I really appreciate it.

00:59:31:00 - 00:59:33:05
Speaker 1
Have a good rest of your day.

00:59:33:07 - 00:59:39:08
Speaker 2
All right. Take care.

00:59:39:10 - 01:00:02:06
Speaker 1
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01:00:02:06 - 01:00:29:16
Speaker 1
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01:00:29:18 - 01:00:40:12
Speaker 1
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