Breaking Free from People-Pleasing: A Conversation with Therapist Justine Carino (67)

I hear a lot of like I'm living an inauthentic life, Like where I am saying how I got here were not actually what I wanted for myself. A lot of the choices I've made have led me to this moment for me to please other people.

Have you ever caught yourself in a pattern of doing something for someone and then you find yourself feeling burnt out or full of resentment? One of the things I've had to confront throughout my growth journey is this pattern and the inclination to people please. In this episode, I got to talk to a mental health counselor and anxiety treatment specialist, justine Carino. All about people pleasing and these patterns that lead to burnout and resentment. Justine helps us understand what people pleasing is and why we do it, and how we can tap into our core values to establish boundaries and step out of these people pleasing patterns and into our strength. Hi everyone, and welcome back to how the Wise One Grows. Before we get started, let's take a moment to land here, together with Three Deep Breath. Thank you for joining us today. We'll be back in a minute. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I'll see you in the next episode. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thanks. Great job, guys. And then notice where you feel the exhale. Two more like this, noticing the in breath, notice the out breath, one more inhale and exhale and then return to where your body makes contact to the earth, and you can slowly open your eyes as you return to this space. So thank you so much for landing here with us Today. I am with Justine Carino. Did I say your name, right? I am attached to that, yes, you did. Yes, justine. I'm really excited to be with Justine today. Justine is a therapist, and we are going to talk about something that I have struggled with my whole life, which is people pleasing. So, justine, thank you so much for being here, hi.

Holly, thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored to be talking to you and your listeners and be talking about one of my favorite topics that I am always talking about. I think so many people need to hear about this.

I definitely agree. I kind of just want to dive in because I feel like there's just so much to this topic that's really relatable for, I think, a lot of people. Do you mind just kind of leaning in to sharing with us what people pleasing is? Because it's definitely a word people know. But what does it actually mean?

Sure, so the way we can view people pleasing is really our tendency to put in a lot about her to make sure our actions and choices will be pleasing to other people. And this can be a subconscious way for us to try and guarantee a sense of security or acceptance or love from the people around us. And I want to normalize this. I think people pleasing kind of feels good and there's a lot of benefit to it and actually we're kind of wired that way. If we think about us being cave people or cave women, back at the start of time there was a lot of risk to not getting along with other people. So from what we know is the women were together in communities and we learned from each other. We kind of gather and socialize, while the males are the ones out hunting and providing and bringing back the food. So as females back in time, there's a lot of benefit to forming community around us and that's kind of how we learned and exchanged information. Like I'm imagining sitting around a campfire like how'd you cook your chicken today? Oh, don't eat those berries, oh, this is great for to keep your babies warm. Like we need it to socialize and be accepted for survival reason, like the people that were alone probably didn't survive, right? So the people that learned how to make relationships and connections in a sense of community did so. If we look at people pleasing as a survival mechanism, if I could bring some happiness, joy or please other people, we're likely to survive, which is so true if we even think of babies today, in 2023, like they want to please their caretakers because they're so dependent on their caretakers for survival. So making people happy is a survival skill. So people pleasing is a survival skill that we all have within us. So it's very normal. But when we have this conversation, I want to think of the, the excessive people pleasing, right? The people pleasing that we've become really dependent on and habitualized over time.

Yeah, I really I'm glad that you leaned into like people pleasing isn't inherently a bad thing. It's truly like a survival thing for all people, because when we didn't have if you didn't have community, you couldn't survive, and I think a lot about how I mean it still is survival today. Having community is so key, and especially on that emotional level in the world that we face. The word belonging and like Renee Brown's work on belonging really comes to mind when we're talking about this right now. For sure, for sure yeah. And when we think about that, I think of things. Most things live on a spectrum, right. So there's like a spectrum where people, pleasing, can live and it's like, yeah, you know, that's how you belong and deal with community and can get along with people. But when we go to the other end of the spectrum, that takes it to the extreme and it can become detrimental to our own well-being. I think that's where there's some work and more conversation to be had around it. So when we think about that end, yeah, and when we think about that end of the spectrum, I guess first let me rewind this how do people know if there are people pleaser, like, how do you? I feel like for me, I'm like, I know I'm one, but is it something most people know or is it something you might not know?

Yeah, it's funny to bring that up. I remember like first of all I identify as a people pleaser and recovery myself. But I remember, like maybe learning the term at some point in like middle school, and they're like, oh, my goodness, that's me, like I had to be pointed out to me. I remember this moment and I'm like, yeah, so I wanted to learn all about it at the time. But, like typical treat of someone, that is a people pleaser, is you say yes, more than you really want to right you tend to avoid chocolate. You focus a lot of your attention, energy and efforts towards being liked by other people. It feels like the end of the world if someone doesn't like you. Being unliked is very uncomfortable, they know, also makes you uncomfortable or maybe a little anxious, and it sometimes no comes with feeling the guilt that you struggle with. You often have too much on your plate or you feel resentful of all that you have to do or wish you could have said no, and you often hide your true feeling because you think it will make other people uncomfortable. If you really express your truly feeling, you're afraid you'll be rejected or make someone angry or have someone become disappointed with you.

And why do you think that people, why do people fall into this pattern?

One of the biggest things that I talk about a lot with my clients and these people freezing tendencies stemming from childhood family dynamic and going back to the survival mechanism inside all of us innately. Sometimes this is really necessary to survive in a certain family system. It keeps us feeling alone by the people around us. We say people pleasers were once parent pleasers. They knew what to do to please their parents right. Also like a fear of abandonment is there. Dispacks between parents and children can sometimes lead to this, where you made to feel guilty if you did what pleased yourself over pleasing your parent or pleasing your sibling or pleasing what was good for the entire family system at the time. So I think this is developed slowly and there was a lot of benefit to those thoughts and behaviors in childhood that it then gets carried into adulthood and adulthood is really the first time we recognize like maybe this type of being isn't so healthy for me. And then we're resentful and like why do I feel so resentful? But I think that a lot has to do with, like early relationships in our life and how people pleasing benefit us.

And when we I think about like within a family, when I think about like me and my siblings, I feel like we're all on a different place on that spectrum. So is it kind of more? It's not necessarily about like. I always find it interesting how each child can have a totally different experience in a family system, so it's more like how you're situating yourself in that greater part of a whole versus just the way your parents, like reared you and brought you up. Is that?

what you're saying, exactly, exactly. So we all take on a role in our family without anyone really knowing it right, and so these are some conscious roles that we kind of fall into based on our birth order, based on how we show up when shit goes down in our family, based on, like, our own temperaments and being right, and I'm thinking I'm like me and my brother, like we're so opposite, like I'm more of a people pleaser. He's like I'll do what I want. I don't care how you feel about it, right. And like you're so assertive with what his needs are, where I was always more passive. That was probably a great balance for my parents to have, right, we just fell into that. But these conscious roles really keep the homeostasis of a system going and so we kind of always play out these roles and then when we head to adulthood, we then reenact these roles and other parts of our life. So, yeah, there could be five siblings in a family and everyone talk about their childhood in such different ways, based on birth order and experiences at that time and the roles they feel that really benefited the overall good of the family, even if it was dysfunctional.

From your experience have you noticed a pattern in birth order in people pleasers. That's a great question.

Typically the first born is like if you go a few weeks and I don't want to like stereotype or generalize, but typically the first born really wants to please, they're the first and they like the parents. It's like their guinea pig child right, and they don't know what they're doing and the first born kind of plays into that and really wants to please them when, like the second or third child, tends to be more like the rebel. But there's also situations where the people pleaser is the middle child, because that's me.

That's you right.

So then we have, you're in the middle and the oldest is kind of just being the pioneer of the family, like the first to drive, the first to have a boyfriend or girlfriend, or the first to maybe come out to the family, right, the first to do all of these things, and the other siblings kind of have to watch out. How's that going for that person? Do I need to? Is that going well for that? And then if you're the middle child and you have someone younger than you, then there's like the baby, and the baby tends to get everything earlier than the rest. The baby tends to be like the princess or the prince of the family and they have their need. And so the middle child is kind of put into like how do I make myself known? I'm having a hard time doing it, so I'll just be the peacemaker or I'll just go with the flow. I'll shove my need down. I'll please older sibling, I'll please younger sibling, I'll please the parents, but need stay quiet is why it might need everyone else's. All of these other.

Yes, absolutely so. It's between the middle child and the girl yeah, it's rough being a middle child. My mom and I had like a going joke when I was growing up where I'd just be like what am I chopped liver. She like taught me to say that.

Yeah, that's really cute.

I love that, yeah, so you mentioned a few things that I know I've experienced, particularly like burnout as a symptom, or not burnout, particularly resentment as a symptom of people pleasing. Yeah, are there any other kind of like side effects of people pleasing that you like people can be like? Oh, maybe I am people pleasing more than I'm aware of, and do you notice any impacts of people pleasing on mental health and well being?

For sure. So I think some like side effects or symptoms is people and I love this question because people don't call me for therapy and I'm like, hey, I want to come and work on my people pleasing tree but like that has never happened. But once again, my office, we learn that about them. But the thing that they're calling for is like unburnt out right, which we'll go into too. I'm stressed out on all the time. I'm overwhelmed, I'm very frustrated with a relationship in my life so it could be a relationship with a parent, a sibling, their own romantic relationship, their friend, their boss or colleagues. Right, there's some level of frustration that their needs aren't getting met and they don't know how to express them. They tend to jump it down. That's part of the people pleasing treat. They often say like I feel stuck or I feel really trapped in my situation and realistically, the way to get out is probably to be more assertive, but they don't feel strong enough to do that, so they feel stuck and trapped. I'm also. I hear a lot of like I'm living an inauthentic life, like where I am saying, oh, I got here. We're not actually what I wanted for myself. A lot of the choices I've made have led me to this moment, for me to please other people. Mom dad mentors, peer group, society, right. So they're usually very pressured, Like I'm not living the life I want to live. I feel so inauthentic. So that would be some of those thoughts and feelings. But in terms of mental health, there's a lot of anxiety and a lot of burnout.

That's what people think, yeah, I definitely when I think back, like as a child, I would kind of get to a point with friendships where I would just be like I can't hang out that person anymore, because maybe we weren't like hanging out in a way that was supportive for me, but I didn't know how to communicate it. Or if I didn't, I would just like ghost almost, because I just didn't know how to be like. I actually don't want to do that today. Maybe we could do this instead.

Yeah, and so I love that I'm playing ghosting to avoid the possible confrontation that would need to happen. That's interesting. It's like so compensatory to that.

Yeah, this is something that a listener sent in which I was like, did you get inside my brain and you came up with this question? But they asked when we're thinking about people pleasing, how can we find a balance between making people happy which, like for people, please, are, like often I'm, like that makes me happy, like yeah, if you're happy, I'm happy versus over people pleasing, like how do we find the balance of when people pleasing is maybe like a healthy thing versus when it leans into that unhealthy place?

Like really doing too much for others. That's a great question. My thing is like a constant assessment of your pattern, right, your behaviors and how the choice makes you feel inside. Right, because it's like it's a little in big. A friend invites you to her 30th birthday party and you really don't want to go and you're dreading it, but you want to make a friend Because you value the friendship and you know there's a benefit to doing so. We do have to please people sometimes, right? Yeah, sometimes people expect that about, and those are hard decisions to make, because if you said no to everything everyone asked of you, then at some point in the theater on our evening kind of selfish or you know what I mean Like we do have to accommodate other people in our relationship. So it's a really a great area and I love the listeners questions because we don't want to think of it as rigid. We want to think of these decisions as fluid and I think a lot of it has to do with what you value, right? So if you value this friendship that I'm making up in my mind of your friend's 30th birthday, like, is this a friend that would do the same for you, right? Would they support you Do? You think you would feel good once you were there? Do you value the year, how many years you guys have been friends? And if you weren't going to the party you would just be sitting and watching Netflix. Maybe you could push yourself out of that bubble, right, it would be different. If it's like, ooh, it's my friend's 30th birthday, but I'm nine months pregnant, right, then that's a different conversation. Well, I kind of value my rest right now. I value getting my sleep and I can imagine being out, and I need to express that to my friend, even though this might disappoint that friend to hear me saying I rather sleep. Maybe it's a little bit more understandable. Right, you're about to give birth next week. We're going to kind of check in with our values in those moments, because our values do change over time and we have to adapt to what we're value, what's a priority in our life. But it's a little bit of give and take, because if we never please other people and just put our needs first all the time, then that's a trouble, tricky place to be in also. So we kind of have to constantly assess the balance. I might be like Another thing I'm thinking about as an example of burnout and people breathing. Let's say you have a boy and when you were hired you were told the hours were 9 to 5, right. And then all of a sudden you're realizing, four months in, it's not really 9 to 5. He calls you as soon as you get home and then you're doing work in the evening, and it's Monday through Thursday. You're doing that and now it's a mess. You're working so many more hours and you've originally thought of being hired. You've got your job and you're ready to quit and you're too afraid to have a conversation, right? So that's an example of like wow, your people pleasing have gone too far. You need to stand up for yourself now and have a conversation with your boss and talk about hey, I'm going to work here, but now you've taken advantage of my kindness and now I need some boundaries around my work hours. How can you talk about that? So I hope that answers the listeners question a little bit.

Yeah, there's a lot I want to dive into with that. When I first saw this listener question, too, it made me think a lot about how I often find myself when I'm in situations with people. If I'm with someone where they're like, oh well, what do you want to do? And that my default is like, whatever you want to do, I've noticed this pattern of I am much more comfortable leaning into figuring out what someone else wants versus leaning into figuring out what I actually want.

I love that.

Yeah, and so that's been a constant practice. For me is like tapping in and learning how to listen to like. What do I actually want right now? Because my default mode for so long has just been like I'm assessing the people around me, trying to figure out their needs, to make sure their needs are met, not even tuning into my own. So, that's where I think mindfulness has been really key. For me is just like taking a moment, slowing it down, listening and embodying for me what's actually there.

And then I point.

Yeah, is that something you see in people off dinner?

Yeah, I mean, I just love how you gave such a solid example Like what do you want to eat for dinner tonight? It doesn't matter who can write like what time should we leave in the morning to go on our trip? This matter, what's best for you, like the default, is always works for you what works for you. And then they decide and we may be too afraid to actually verbalize Well, I probably, but this time, or I kind of, want this for dinner tonight. And these are little examples, right, but they happen so much that it becomes problematic.

I don't think we're not making any just exactly, and I've found to that it'll be like people that I know are like supportive of me. It would be like in a situation with I'd be so uncomfortable making anything inconvenient for someone, even if it's not even inconvenient. Like it would be like with my roommate who have lived with forever and you know no issues there, and it'd be like man, I'm out of lettuce and I really want to borrow some of hers, but I don't even like want to like text to ask that, so I'd rather just figure out another solution for myself. And it became a practice of like, okay, this is a moment where I notice like I don't want to do that thing because I'd rather make myself go out of my way to do something, versus like telling someone I need something as small as a handful of lettuce, you know. So letting those be my scaffolding to build up with. Like, okay, this is a relationship that I know is safe, that I know is supportive. This is a really small thing that, like she and I went think twice about. So, like those were my moments of practicing, like I'm going to need my need right now and practicing those needs getting being met and then, like that can build and build. So when there's other things, it feels less overwhelming to name your need.

But I think you really have to make yourself where you're at.

Yeah. I think the baby steps go a long way when it comes to that.

For sure, for sure, and you're bringing up, like the mindfulness check in, like what am I feeling right now? What is this need that I want to be met, that's triggering me or I'm having a reaction to, which makes me think of like one of the best ways to try and overcome people pleasing is paying attention to your thought patterns that are involved with behaviors, avoidance right, there's a lot of what we call in psychology cognitive distortion. They're really like these thinking trap and there's a lot of the should, the must I ought to. We personalize things. We kind of jump to a conclusion without enough evidence and with a lot of people pleasing thought from behaviors were, jumping to a conclusion that if I say this or express my need, this person will be disappointed or this person will reject me, this person will abandon me, this person will fight with me, this person, this person, blah, blah, blah. And the reality is like, probably not Like that person might just say, yeah, my lettuce, and not think anything of it. Right, yeah, so there's a lot of mental work to people please their hands going on that we need to slow down with the mindfulness and do some thought checking. I might not be even helpful, I might not even accurate. Is the light and things, even reality, be?

I had a moment with my husband the other night. We were, we were at like a baby shower or something and I had been sitting with someone else and then I was talking to him but I'd left my drink and I was like, oh, like I leaned into him, was like man, like is it bad if I go and reach over to get my drink? And then I'm not talking to them anymore and he was just like I've never met anyone who over thinks as much as it's like oh yeah, these are good checks. It's okay, you can, you can get your dream. Yeah, like you don't have to feel rude about that.

Oh, yeah, oh yeah, so funny. And like my husband, I always joke like I'm the people pleaser and he doesn't appease anybody and that's something that maybe makes us a good thing, right? He's able to set boundaries so much better that me the trade is able to do like it just came natural to him to be able to do things like that. And he often is like the default of really, can you set this boundary on our behalf? But you know, I should probably really practice it. But so true, sometimes people please partner up with people that are more certain and able to set boundaries a lot better, get their needs met a lot easier.

Definitely so. As we start to talk about boundaries, I feel like we've kind of like dabbled in this, but how do you work with people to start establishing boundaries and kind of dealing with that initial discomfort of like? Now we're able to notice like, okay, this pattern might be unhealthy for me. With this point I need to start to adjust. Where do we start and how do we deal with, like, the uneasiness that can come with that?

Totally, and I think boundary setting is another great way besides the thought challenging to help with people who you think, because people, please, are sent to have a little bit or a loose of boundaries right there. We can think of boundaries as rigid or loose or a little flexible, like there's different ways to describe it. But the people who use are tends to be kind of loose because the setting the boundary leads to fear and get the person will be disappointed with my boundary right. So people please are to start practicing setting more boundaries. So it really feels uncomfortable to start this if you're someone that's the people please are, because you're not used to doing it. But just because it's uncomfortable doesn't mean it's bad for you. It's a good discomfort for you to go through. I feel like boundary setting. We've really simplified online, but it's truly so complicated and we want to imagine a boundary being that imaginary line that separates me from you, right? People have physical boundaries, which is a little bit more easily understood, but we also have these emotional boundaries, relationship boundaries, boundaries with our time and energy, our need, our responsibilities from others, and our boundaries also tell other people how they can treat us and send a message about, like, what's really acceptable for us and what is so people, please, there's tend to be burnt out and they've ignored their boundary line somewhere, and it's usually with time, energy or resources, right. So, in order to start setting boundaries, we need to get very clear, going back to the value, right, like what are your current values right now? And that clarity can help you guide your decisions around how you're spending your time, what you're agreeing to do, what your priorities are, who are the people in your life? That should take up speed, and one way I try and challenge a confession is asking my client like do you value other people's comfort level over your own? And that's it with people for a while, because that's the truth. When we are people pleasing, we're saying. I value their comfort level and their happiness over what I need right now To be happy and comfortable, and you can't live a life that way. We need to value and honor our needs and what's truly good for us. So we want to challenge that over and over again. What is the priority to you right now? And often we're stuck with decisions like, wow, I really value this thing and that thing. It feels impossible to make this decision and that's real. That's a lie if there are so many situations where both values are being held, like friendship versus your husband Only value both of them, but now you have to pick one in this situation. Or let's say you have children. I have two little kids like, do I value her well-being right now or his well-being? How do I mean two? One is hitting the other and how do I stop this fight? It's like constantly trying to assess that, but anyway. So when we get clear on what we're valuing and I have a lot of exercise that I do with clients that have like a bunch of like hundred values already laid out You're circling the ones that fit for you right now. We're ranking how important they are to you. That just gives you some clarity, then you can set a boundary with the time that you spend with other people, your resources, what you're saying yes to. So, for example, I'll just use myself as a model. I'm a working and I love my career, but I also love time spent with my kids and one of my biggest values is present. So when I'm working with my clients, I am a hundred percent focused on them, like if in person or telehealth. How dare I check an email on a telehealth session? I would never do that. I'm a hundred percent focused and present with you, actively listening. But then when I go home, I want to do this thing for my kids. I want to be a hundred percent present with them. And how dare I check an email while I'm playing with magnetiles? In a perfect world, we can do that 24-7. It's not a perfect world. Sometimes I have a client crisis where I do have to step outside my home to manage blah blah blah, or vice versa. Maybe I am in a therapy session with a client and I'm like I have a really important doctor that has to call me, but I have to step out for five minutes. Can you stay another five minutes if it's called, come to blah blah blah? So the value of being present has guided my boundaries At work. I have boundaries to be present at work and at home I have boundaries put in place to be present at home. Does that make sense?

I think so. So is what you're saying is that boundaries can be fluid, and that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as they're in alignment with your values and by using the values as the base. The boundaries can kind of meld around that from moment to moment.

Exactly. And listen, there's going to be some very rigid values people have. I mean rigid boundaries people have. I will not allow you to physically harm me. These are easier ones. People have very rigid, strict boundaries, as we should. But then there's other boundaries that can be a little bit flexible. But knowing what value can help set up the boundaries that you need. And when we are in alignment with that, it's easier to set the boundary because you know it's coming from a place of alignment. So, it's a little easier to talk to someone and say no when we're saying no out of our values system, of what we value right then and there. So it's hard to do. I always recommend we start slow, like once one small thing that's kind of insignificant will give you good practice to set a boundary around, and it could be with yourself or another person. And once you're consistent with practicing that, let's try a different boundary to set and we want to slowly build on it.

Yeah, I love that. I think for me, a huge starting point was setting boundaries with myself, of being like these are my non-negotiables of ways I'm going to care for myself every day, so that I can show up and not hit that resentment and burnout and getting like really clear on that and really practiced in that. So then, if I wasn't at a point where I could communicate my need as much as I wanted to, it was like I've taken care of my container enough to be in this space and I've like done that base first, like I put my oxygen mask on first and then it's built and built. But I remember there I mean even sometimes now I probably still do it but there was certainly a point where, like I would want to go on a run or meditate or do something, but like I knew someone else wanted me to do something else and I would, instead of saying like no, I need to do this for myself, because I thought it was like selfish, I would like make up another reason I couldn't be there or something or other. But versus, I think it's important to view. Someone once told me of thinking of it as selfish with a capital S, and it's like not a bad thing to be selfish. Sometimes there's that there's a beauty to it and a it's like a radical compassion and radical acceptance to be like. No, this is what I need right now. I need to tend to me on this very baseline human level of having my basic needs met. Then I can show up and be a human with you and engage with you.

But if I don't do that first.

I can't do the rest. Yeah, yeah.

And you know correct, trying to work on the people who need the end. Setting boundaries is actually protective of the relationships we have, because that's what I'm saying before. Like you could end up ghosting and cutting someone out. But, if you're practicing like I want to speak up and get my needs met, or balance, or have a conversation or kind of key of like what works for both of us, then you're actually feeding and nurturing this relationship and sustaining it longer than the avoidance and like cutting it off or running the other way.

And I think there might be a double-edged sword to this one too, particularly in, you know, family dynamics and relationships you've had with people for a long time. When you start to make, that shift of my default mode isn't just going to be people pleasing, I'm not just going to agree and do what you want me to do all the time, the way you're used to. I think there's a that's really hard for the relationships at first and some forever. You know some may never totally adjust to it, and that's information, but in my experience it's almost been like there's like an earthquake in the relationship and like the foundation, the soil it's like gotta get broken up to get rearranged, to settle into this new dynamic.

Absolutely, absolutely. And sometimes the family members or the friendship will act out and try and suck you back into the way you were before to maintain that whole bio-stasis of the relationship, of that predictability, that certainty of oh well, this person always does things this way. But you're absolutely right. Some people, some relationships, can adapt to those new boundaries and others may not, but at the other day you're going to be feeling better. This alleviates the anxiety that killed the burnout for you.

And maybe on a level, you're not going to be feeling better too, because, as a people pleaser, it's like when, oh like, you're mad at me now that my system does not know how to deal with that, and having to learn how to be okay with that discomfort, because I think, maybe this is where your values check comes back in. It's like there's some serious discomfort that I'm stealing right now but I'm checking into like my core value, not maybe this like ego that's in my head telling me that I need to do this to be loved.

Exactly, you hit it right there, right, and whenever there is guilt, we want to check, like did I make a decision out of alignment with something I value? And most of the time you're working on yourself, we're trying to make decisions out of your values and things are in a line with you. So the guilt is, can be irrational and it's just tolerating, like, like, feels so uneasy that this person mad at me or disappointed them or I said no, you get through that and that's the growth getting out of the comfort zone.

Yeah, and just that, learning how to be with discomfort, I just think, is like maybe some of the medicine of people pleasing, like we just have to learn how to be with it. We have to learn how to be with this the discomfort of knowing what you actually want and feeling worthy of that, enough to name it. And the discomfort that arises when you don't please everyone, because you can never, you won't always, and it's more important that you're like tapping into your values and honoring your authenticity and I was thinking about this when we were talking about families too. This is maybe a way we can have a bit more compassion in these like more lifelong relationships we've had, when they don't handle our new boundaries well and like that's okay. Like if, like I think something I've really had to learn is I am not responsible for how you receive my boundaries and like I'm not responsible for caring for you in that, like that's that one's on you. But I can have compassion, especially in like a family system where, like, we've all operated in this way to survive. This is how we have made it, this is how we have formed, so when there is a disruption, it makes a lot of sense for people to like want to meld it back to the way it was, because that's what felt safe to them, even if it was dysfunctional or not supportive and with healthy communication and like a lot of time and practice it can remold. But I think it can be helpful from the people pleasing end to kind of see it as like maybe it's not about me, which often I think that's like. Another secret for people pleasers is like it's actually not about you as much as you think it is.

I love that you brought that in the compassion part and I think what might feel good is like the people please are being able to call it out like hey, mom, I'm like I know I normally do this every Wednesday for you. I'm just making something up, but you know what I can't anymore and I know that's like so disappointing for you. But, I, but this is what it is going forward. I understand if you feel a certain way about it right and giving another person the opportunity to react. They're going to react when they're going to react the way that's uncomfortable and that's that tolerance and validating that person. Like, yeah, mom, I see why you're upset about this chain. But I need to make this change or whoever we're setting that boundary with, and that compassion is kind of reasonable. Yeah, you are changing and people don't like to eat, so they're going to react.

I'm thinking of it right now as my sister and brother in law are like new parents. They just seem like total rock star parents and when their kid doesn't get what he wants, sometimes they don't like just give it to him, they just like look at him and they're like it's okay to be upset, buddy, like it's okay to feel sad, it's okay to feel frustrated. And I think it's kind of like repeating that to yourself sometimes, or like mentally saying that to the other person or verbally saying it like yeah, it's okay to be frustrated by that, like I'm not going to change the boundary, but that's okay that you feel that way.

Exactly, exactly, and it's also making me think. So there's a modality in therapy called internal family system, and it's kind of love, internal family systems. So there's the pricing for ourselves. So the people pleaser might have a part called the pleaser right, and so the pleaser has probably made a lot of decisions for them in their life that they've benefited from, and now, if they're working on this, they might have to tell the pleaser and themselves, like you're so well intentioned I know you have my benefit in mind, thank you for being here I need you to step back a little bit, please, there, right. Or when you set a boundary and you you're met with resistance, the pleaser and you are like, oh, just change it back, just just change the boundary back, let's make this person more comfortable. Like, like, can't take this to some part. That's when you literally in your head, talk to the pleaser part of you, like, pleaser, I know this is uncomfortable for you, but somebody okay, we can, we can get through this kind of like talking to the toddler about the fresh range.

Yeah, I think it's so helpful to just be able to view the different parts and just like imagine yourself self soothing in that way and just like being as compassionate to all those parts and like none of them are bad. They just are there, Not always doing good things, but the core of it isn't.

Yeah, absolutely.

Do you know much about the Enneagram at all?

I don't and they know like it sounds amazing and I hear a lot about it but I don't know much about it.

Yeah, totally good, I was gonna see if there was a relation in that at all.

But number and people pleasing, that be interesting yeah.

Um, taking a moment to re regroup my brain because I let it get scattered. Yeah yeah, I think that this was all so helpful. I tend to like to leave listeners with one small step they can start to take after these conversations. So do you have one small step you would advise someone take today to? If they identify with people pleasing, how can they work towards stepping out of that pattern?

I would say think about one thing you have been resenting greatly and an obligation you agreed to do or a chore you took on, or an assignment or like something that you've been really resenting a work hour, work commitment, who knows, whatever it is. And let's use that as an opportunity to set a boundary and that might say telling your friend you know what? I agreed to bring the balloons for your bridal shower or something else, but you know, that's made it to be really difficult for me to actually do it. And I keep thinking about this it's better if someone else can take that task on and I'm happy to do blah, blah, blah right Like you kind of trade it out or you know, I work every day till six o'clock. I told this client that I would see them at the time of this time, really every cent. This time I need to talk to this client about a different time that we can be meeting, right? So one thing you're resenting that you can set a boundary with and use your affirmation like I can do this.

I know this is uncomfortable.

I can tolerate how uncomfortable this is. It's not going to be as bad as I think it is. Let me just try this now. Let me attempt it. So that would be your homework. Listener, to pick one thing you're resenting, identify how to express that resentment in the most kind, compassionate way, and have a new boundary or say no, or honor your own need in that situation.

Yeah, I love that and I definitely recommend like starting small with that and then building. Like don't start with your biggest thing, start small and then you'll feel better and want to do it again. And don't put your job tomorrow let it stay.

something else, yeah, exactly.

Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. This is such an important topic and I really think it's going to be supportive for so many people listening, For those who are listening. Do you mind sharing how we can support you and the work that you're doing in the world?

Absolutely so. Everything is on my website, perino-counselingcom. That's where you can find all my services and therapists in New York. So if you live in New York, we can do virtual therapy. If you're outside of New York, I do anxiety coaching. I also have a podcast called Thoughts from the Couch that focuses a lot on anxiety management, relationships, people pleasing and perfectionism. Oh, I also have a fun quiz called which type of people, please, are you which? If you take it, you get assigned one of five archetypes that I've come across in my work and you'll get an email about archetype and some of the things that archetype struggles with. So I can definitely give you that link as well for show notes.

Awesome. I'll put all the links to Justine's Sankh and the show notes. I definitely recommend listening to Thoughts from the Couch. There's so many good conversations on there as well.

Thank you so much. Thank you, Holly, for having me.

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