[FLASHBACK] How Forest Bathing Can Ease Your Climate Distress and Anxiety with Daillen Culver

Hi everyone and welcome back to how the Wise One Grows. This week we are going to time travel together. Back to episode 55, where we had a conversation with Daelyn Culver about forest bathing. I had never heard of forest bathing before and talking to Daelyn really helped me better understand how forest bathing relates to eco-anxiety and climate distress and that it is a little bit different than the image I had of being naked taking a shower in the woods. So I'm really excited that we get to revisit this conversation together. But before we get started, let's land here together with 3D breaths. So just take a moment to notice where your body makes contact with the earth. If it's safe, if you aren't driving, you can gently rest your eyes and take a big breath in, fill your chest, fill your belly with air, exhale, open your mouth, let it out Again. Inhale, chest and belly, expand, exhale, let it go One more. Inhale and exhale and return to that point of contact to the earth and slowly open your eyes as you return to this space. Alright, let's time travel. Three, two, one. So do you mind sharing a bit about eco-anxiety and how it impacts people?

Yeah, 100% and just to validate that this is like. Statistically, it is something that is affecting more and more of us, and the data supports that, and it's something that we need to really pay attention to. So eco-anxiety is one manifestation of climate distress. Climate distress is the kind of larger umbrella term that we use to describe a whole host of emotional and mental challenges that arise when we really have the courage to look at what's happening to our planet, what we are doing to our planet, the harm that we're causing and these kinds of thresholds that keep passing us by. Eco-anxiety as a term, I think, is actually a little bit limiting, because anxiety is not always independent from depression, fear, guilt, and climate distress is not a perfect term either, but I think it's more inclusive of the often really like complicated and sometimes contradictory feelings that we have when it comes to the climate crisis. So anxiety, specifically, is rooted in fear. Right, it's a forward-looking phenomenon. It's this uncertainty about what the future holds, and I think it's important to remember that anxiety is a rational response to the situation that we find ourselves in. It's not abnormal, it is normal. The situation is abnormal and this is an unprecedented crisis, and so those who experience anxiety or climate distress, are not weaker or more sensitive or more predisposed to anxiety or something. We are all susceptible, but it's going to look very different for everyone. The physical manifestation of anxiety we usually think of it as like hyperarousal, so hyperventilating, difficulty sleeping, panic attacks, that sympathetic nervous system activation. But that's not always the case because, like I said, a lot of these feelings are often intertwined and anxiety might be accompanied by a lot of hypoarousal, arousal and apathy. So we get pushed to the point where we just don't care anymore and I think that that, like cynicism and disengagement, is actually more dangerous than the hyperarousal, because it just zaps all of our motivation to act and it zaps our sense of agency. It zaps our sense that we actually can do something about it.

Definitely. I think it's. I really appreciate you naming the wider perspective of seeing it as ecodistress and really I think so many people fall into that, like despair and depression about what's even the point, like what impact can I make, what can I do? So thank you for naming that, something that, when you first started talking about bringing our awareness to the crisis at hand, like I think so much of us move through life, it's easy, at least in the West, to kind of distance yourself from it. Right, because maybe we're not experiencing the very real impacts in our day-to-day when we step outside. There's definitely impacts that are there, but it's maybe not as prevalent as it is in other parts of the world. And I think this is an element where a lot of work of mindfulness can come in is like being willing to bring our awareness to the full scope and the discomfort that's there. But I think when it's not in your face, it's so tempting and on some level, like a sense of protection to not let yourself really see and take in the gravity of what's happening. But when I look at the, the teachings of the practices, it's so much coming to like whether or not we choose to bring awareness to things, they're still there and when we resist it or pretend it's not there, it's more and more suffering, it's gonna get worse and worse. So, learning how to step into that discomfort of what already is and bringing our awareness to the present situation, and then, you know, letting ourselves be with the discomfort, the anxiety, the depression, the very validated and real feelings that are brought about, but then not, I think the key really comes in like not getting stuck in that. How can we let ourselves feel that and then work towards stimulated action and change to, you know, take the necessary change that we, every individual, must take, but how can we do that on a day-to-day basis? And how do we do that on a day-to-day basis without falling into that like burnout and compassion, fatigue and overwhelm from these big emotions? I guess in my experience have there been, or for you have there been, some tools that have helped you be with the reality that's present and not deplete yourself as you work towards changing.

Yeah, I completely resonate with everything you just said. I think, as you mentioned in the quote-unquote West. I always put that in quotes because I studied development and I'm skeptical of like. West East, global North, global South All those terms are always euphemisms for other things. But in the West, in modern cities, living modern lifestyles, it is easy to live in a state of semi-denial and that's a protective mechanism, right Like that's what our brains and hearts are doing to protect themselves from the harsh reality, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think the beautiful part of mindfulness practices and compassion practices is that they start to widen that window of tolerance, where it's like, because the more you block out the scary stuff and the sad stuff and the grief and the fear and the heartbreak, and the more you block that stuff out, you also block out the awe and the beauty and the joy and the ecstasy. And I think that we cannot have one without the other, and that's what I love about. Whether it's a meditation or a forest bathing practice or those practices designed to bring us into full awareness, you get to experience both, and I would rather experience both than neither, and I love the work of Joanna Macy on this. Are you familiar with her?

I've heard the name, but I haven't studied her work.

She's the best and she has a book called Active Hope. She has a bunch of books, but her book on Active Hope is kind of a she's a Buddhist philosopher, so kind of Buddhist inspired argument for optimism around climate change specifically. And yeah, she has all of these amazing quotes I wish I had one pulled up right now but just about how we cannot let the fear of the future rob us of the beauty and joy of the present. And so I've found that allowing myself to feel the depth of my feelings in a supportive environment. So in some cases that might be in community with trusted friends and loved ones, in some cases that might be on my own Going on solo hikes with the dog for me is such a cathartic exercise and just finding those kind of selves when you're starting to feel really chafed and afraid at the edges, like taking the time and prioritizing the practices that allow you to kind of recoup and replenish. And a lot of the people I know who do this kind of work One of my colleagues from my compassion program at Stanford is. Her name is Barb Easterlin. She created the first ever climate psychology certificate program for mental health professionals and she has made it her mission to well. She has made it a priority for her to go on at least two week long retreats per year where she is totally disconnected, totally immersed in nature, because she's realized that that's what she needs in order to be able to continue doing the work that she does and it's different for everyone, but when she told me that I was like, yeah, good on you, that's what you need.

Yeah, 100%. I really love that. You spoke to how we, when we can fully be with that wholeness of the present moment, it's not just that darkness that's there, there's that hope too, there's that beauty and there are the gifts that can make it possible for us to step into that work and transformation and change. And if we can't be fully where we are, if there's extra energy and effort wasted on this resistance or denial or even beating yourself up for what you're feeling, you're inhibiting your ability not only to appreciate the joys that that is there, but you're stealing some of your energy to put in work towards caring for yourself and caring for the world around us, which I feel like. I mean, I don't know all the ins and outs of this, but it seems like this is where forest bathing can really come in and pair with this eco-distressed and climate-distressed. Do you mind talking about forest bathing? It just like the term just sounds like heaven, just like scrubbing yourself with leaves is what I picture like leaves suds off. I have to always clarify, for people.

I'm like, just so you know, there's no nudity involved in the forest bathing, unless you want there to be.

There could be if you wanted.

Yeah, like that's not a prerequisite, but it does. It's a kind of interesting term that I think generates a lot of misunderstanding, but it's actually so. Forest bathing is the literal translation from the Japanese of Shinryu-nyoku, and Shinryu-nyoku is a practice developed in post-war Japan to address the kind of public health crisis that came about in the wake of mass urbanization. So as all of these people moved into the inner city and were, their lifestyles were radically changed and they were deprived of a lot of the nature that they had been exposed to. In rural areas there were, there was a marked rise in all kinds of both physical and mental health challenges, so higher rates of cardiovascular disease, respiratory illness, rising rates of depression, anxiety, psychosis, suicidal ideation and just these like general feelings of isolation and loneliness. So for several decades now Japanese researchers have been looking at the psychological and physiological benefits of exposure to nature. The term Shinryu-nyoku was coined in the 1980s by Yoshifumi Miyazai. I'm so sorry if I'm pronouncing that incorrectly, but he designed it as a basic framework to induce kind of physiological relaxation and boost immune system function. So it was developed as like a health intervention. Now in the West forest bathing is kind of one part of the larger eco-therapy umbrella, so it's a form of immersive forest therapy, nature therapy. But eco-therapy casts quite a wide net and it represents a variety of practices and techniques, but all of them are aimed at improving health through exposure to and, more importantly, interaction with nature.

I love hearing that, because it's a very common thing for people to be like you know, I feel better when I get outside, but I don't think we talk often enough about like the very evidence based work there is that there are real reasons and physiological things that are happening within the body and the mind as to why you do feel better. So I love seeing that this and, if I'm if I'm remembering correctly, correctly, I think forest bathing came in as like more of a preventative too, or like now it's used more as preventative. Okay, and I think that's such a beautiful thing for us to be thinking about too, is how can we make our day-to-day activities support our overall well-being and prevent, you know, getting to these points of deep health issues, both mentally and physically?

Yeah. I feel like there's kind of like two schools of thought that I've observed, and I'm always an advocate for more like the middle of the road and taking the best from both, but it was, I think, in its first iteration. Forest bathing was designed as like a very specific health intervention with very specific goals of like, and you can see it that way, if you choose to as like a way of improving productivity, as a way of getting up public health metrics, and I think recently there's been more focus on the kind of spiritual side of it as well and those benefits that aren't quite quite so tangible or quite so quantifiable, and I think we have to take into consider both. Right, so there, but there is so much fascinating science and I think that's really important to state that. You know, this was all built on studies done on our exposure to phytonsides. So phytonsides are these aerosolized chemicals that are produced by all plants, but the Japanese research looks specifically at conifers, so your pines, furs, cypress trees, spruces. So when we breathe in these particular chemicals, our bodies respond by increasing the number of nk cells, natural killer cells, which are white blood cells that kill infected, virus infected and tumor infected cells. So it really boosts our immune system. And then, not to mention the kind of parasympathetic activation, that kind of slipping back into rest and digest mode when you're outside. There's all kinds of studies on like the effective bird song on the nervous system and fresh air. Then you know, we all know the benefits of fresh air but then you've got like the like. I would love to see a study on the benefits of that kinship with the natural world. Like, I feel like that's that's kind of what I'm interested in, like, um, and maybe that'll be the new direction of research in the future.

I don't know, yeah, well, I think that's probably the element of force bathing that I find most a pole. I feel like in the last year really, I mean I've always felt a connection to nature. I feel like, really in the last like year, two years, I've been feeling more of that interconnection to nature and seeing this as, like I am not separate from you, humans are not separate from nature, we are nature. And spending really intentional time in nature to reconnect, yes, with the natural world, but that as a means of reconnecting with yourself and then with those around you too, just finding that interweaving. And I think it goes, um, it's pretty contradictory to a lot of what the west says, you know, I think like or the west, but you know, in the states at least, it's very me focused, me centric, machines versus nature, and like not interconnecting and weaving the two entities. And I think that disconnection makes it a lot easier to do harm to the natural world, to not protect the natural world, because you don't see it, um, as much as a living, breathing entity as you are and as a part of you too. So I find that really that connection really key and I think can have a lot of spark towards stimulating change if people are able to be in nature more and find that connection with it yeah, completely, I totally agree.

I think that so much of the exploitation of the earth's natural resources depends upon this idea that we are somehow superior and therefore entitled to exploit those resources. It relies on that idea of separation, because if that's, that separation between humans and nature didn't exist, we're too self-interested to exploit ourselves um but, we do, like you said, live in societies that are designed to be individualistic. Um, and I think that's the the shinto the influence of shintoism on forest bathing you know in its roots as a japanese practice. So I'm not an expert on shintoism, I'll be the first to say. But um, I do know it's. It's an ancient japanese religion. It's still practiced today and it's based on these principles of harmony and purity and respect for nature and, importantly, subordination of the individual before the group. So that exists kind of in opposition to the very individualistic capitalistic societies that, um, you and I live in in the UK and the US. Um, in shintoism that kind of connectedness is a given. It's not as much of a cognitive leap as it is for us. I think um, but it's a really important one and I think I always say in our workshops, like the importance of getting outside. It's like if we love it, we will save it. So the more we see the exploitation of natural resources and exploitation of our being, as much as the earth's being, like you said, like we, we are animals, like I don't know what on earth allowed us to think that we are not um. We have instincts, we have physical bodies, we have physical senses. We will grow and decay and return to the earth. Like you know, our body is the earth's body and we would certainly not be as inclined to cut off our own leg as we would be to cut down all of the trees and the rainforest. Um, so I think I love incorporating some of my compassion work into my forest bathing practice, because one of the principles of compassion is shared common humanity and this idea that we are not separate, we are not isolated, we are all part of the same living, breathing earth, and that's that's a tough leap, I think, for some, for some folks um yeah, definitely.

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So I get this all the time. I, to be clear, I grew up in Colorado. I have always been super outdoorsy, I hike a lot, and I get a lot of people who are like, oh, I practice forest bathing all the time. I like went on a hike last week and I'm like, yeah, okay, that was a hike, not forest bathing but still great still wonderful health benefits of getting outside and moving your body in that way. Don't get me wrong, but when I first experienced forest bathing it kind of rocked my world because it was pretty uncomfortable. Actually, the first couple of times I did it because I was so used to going for a hike, hiking from point A to point B, climbing the mountain, getting to the top of the mountain, coming down. It's very linear you know, and forest bathing is not linear, it's not prescribed, there is no right or wrong way to do it. The kind of principles that I try to weave in are go slow, think less, feel more, be still and get lost. So it's. You can incorporate so many different exercises. Usually in most forest bathing practices there is some kind of threshold that you cross. So there is a moment where you enter into the forest and for me I'll have my participants in some way greet the forest. So we have kind of like an established meeting place. I send them out for maybe 10, 15 minutes on their own. The only rules are you know, don't worry about the time. I'm going to ring this bell when it's time for you to come back. You don't need to look at your phone, you don't need to check your watch. I'll be in charge of the time and let yourself wander, like just greet the forest in whatever way feels most right to you, and then that'll be followed by. And then we kind of come back together and discuss. And then we do another exercise and we come back together and discuss. And, like I said, the exercises really vary. But to give you some examples, so one of my favorite ones is what I call my tiny mantra exercise. So I made all these tiny little cards that I ask people to pay for and I also have a lot of people to pick from and they all have different words written on them. Words like mother, fertile seed, spawn particles, wind, like just all kinds of words, and whatever you have, you know 15, 20 minutes where you go, find a place to sit or preferably lay, and really feel the weight of your body on the earth and notice the space around you with that word in mind. And it's incredible what people come back with, like some people have such powerful experiences. During my forest bathing certification training, one of the women in my group she was an older woman and didn't didn't have any kids, I think, had recently been divorced and had just started a kind of new life on her own in this quite rural part of Scotland and she drew the cards that said family and I think she was already well. She shared with us when we all came back together at the end. You know she had already been in the last few months trying to struggling to cope with the idea of what it means to leave a legacy when you don't have quote unquote family in the traditional sense and she was, yeah, she. She cried and said that she had the most profound experience as she was laying in the grass, realizing that all of these beings around her were her family, you know, and that all of the insects flitting through the shafts of sunlight, those were her family, and the flowers growing in the grass next to her, those were her family and some. It sounds cheesy, but I think when you can actually relax into it and get over that very deeply seated idea that nature is just something for us to use and enjoy and have fun, and but then go back to our nice comfy bed, it's a really powerful practice. So that's kind of a taste of what it looks like. Sometimes it's very different every time.

Yeah, I mean, this definitely wasn't a I've never been guided through a forest bathing class, but but I was recently on a silent meditation retreat and it was. The retreat place was in the middle of tons and tons of woods and forest. That was really beautifully marked, like they kind of told you when you got there like, follow these color tags on the trees, it'll take you about this long to do so. Like you had that reference of like okay, I don't need to worry about time, I don't need to worry about, like, getting too lost. If I just follow these marks, I'll be safe and land where I need. So during one of our breaks I just, you know, walked into the woods and I had never truly spent time in nature in that way, where it was, like you said, there was no dust, I had no idea where I was going. I wasn't looking at a map, I was just gonna like trust that I was following the paths that were there and that I would, you know, finish in the time that I would work for what was happening around that. So I didn't have that stressor and just to really be able to drop in the things that you there, that I witnessed and paid attention to and could really absorb were just so much more profound, and it just felt like being hugged by the nature around me and was a really freeing experience and an experience of learning to like trust, both nature and myself in that moment, which was was a really big gift and I'm more and more trying to find ways to. So often you know I'm probably one of the number one people. It's like, yeah, if I'm going outside I want to like go on a hike or go on a trill run or like you know. Do you know, have a that plan in mind to fit with all the other like things on the to-dos. But carving out more and more of that intentional time and space, the way I'm kind of seeing it is to just hang out like you would with a friend, like how can I treat my relationship with nature the way I would treat it with a friend, like when I hang out with my friends. I don't hang out with them like to get something like an exercise or set benefits from it either. It's like I hang out with you because I love you and I want to get to know you and, yeah, all those benefits will come in too, but that's not the why. So that's that's kind of been my interpretation of what forest bathing can be like is really building this reciprocal relationship between yourself and the natural world. And it reminds me to a lot of the first meditation class I ever took. They explained a friend as someone you waste enough time with, someone you spend enough time with and you know mindfulness is the space to become friends with yourself. That meditation time is when you're just hanging out with yourself, getting to know yourself. And I'm starting to see that, mirrored with the natural world, what you know in forest bathing and intentional time spent outside. How can I become friends with you now? How can I really get to know you?

yeah, yeah, as you were saying that, I was just thinking how many of us live lives where our calendars are planned to the ten minute increment, and so the notion of wasting time is like the ultimate evil you know like but a friend is someone, yeah, with whom time ceases to matter so much you know, because you're like, I enjoy spending time with you so much that like, and and we put so many conditions on our friendship with nature that we don't we wouldn't put on friends. You know, it's like. I need to use this day, this one day that I have out of the month, that I'm gonna go on for a big hike and I'm gonna get up super early and I'm gonna get to the top of the mountain. Then I'm gonna come back down before it rains, because God forbid I'm outside when it rains and like, and yeah, imagine if you did that to a friend, like, okay, well, yeah, I can only squeeze you in for 30 minutes at this particular time and we can only go to this particular restaurant and I'm not gonna listen to everything you have to say.

I'm just gonna focus on, like, where we're going exactly, exactly.

So yeah, I think, as I've gotten into forest bathing over the last few years and as I personally, I think, have started to heal, I've noticed that, in just a very natural, organic kind of way, my time spent outside has become much more meandering. It's less about getting from point A to point B and I go to my favorite places because I want to go there and I know the way that it makes me feel and I'm like, oh, I need that tonic for my soul right now, and that doesn't. I still love hiking. I still go hiking a lot and I still love camping, and you can also weave those moments into your hiking or camping experiences.

It's not like an either, or exactly, and that's something a question I have is how can we weave moments of this forest bathing and intentional connection into our daily lives? Like I had this question in mind, knowing that we were gonna talk and I, my husband, I had to like drop off the car to get fixed somewhere so I had to go meet him or whatever, and as we're, you know, in the parking lot, I'm waiting for him and I'm like I could sit here when I could scroll on my phone and like spend probably the next like 15, 20 minutes doing that while I wait. Or like I see this tree in the middle of the parking lot. And what if I just go see the tree? So I just like got out of the car and just you know, it wasn't anywhere, it was in a parking lot. You know, it wasn't this crazy oasis that you have in your mind, but I just stood in between these two trees, like looking at the leaves and soaking them in and trying to be really present with them and intentional. And then the time went by and it was. It was such a gift. Like I felt so much more replenished.

Moving into what I had next that day, then I would have if I had just done my go-to of scrolling through the phone yeah, 100%, and that is kind of one example of a way that I would recommend incorporating forest bathing principles into your day-to-day life is finding those tiny moments, the minute you want to reach for your phone and start scrolling. Use that as a as, as almost like a trigger, like, oh right, okay, I just opened up Instagram without even thinking about it. My thumb went straight to that button somehow, which is scary. It's been programmed that. Yeah, I'm gonna put my phone down for a second. Look around. What is one thing that is beautiful? What is one thing that inspires awe or that inspires joy or makes me laugh or seems a little whimsical, like the way that that vine is twined around that sign, street sign, or you know, there's a, there's a researcher out of Berkeley called Dr Keltner who talks about, he studies the power of awe and the difference between wonder, and awe is wonder has this kind of grasping to it, this desire to know and to understand, whereas awe puts things in perspective because it's there is no desire to to know and understand. It's just this like stepping back and looking at the vastness of the universe like whoa how, and it's humbling in that way. And so I think going for all walks is what he calls them, finding the things that inspire awe. And find your special places, like I have special places some are closer or farther away from where I live that I go back to time and time again and you return in every season and you get to see how they change and the way that the you know dandelions get all crunchy and brown at the end of the season and then they kind of melt into the soil and then in the spring little shoots are so green and fresh and then they start to wilt and then, and just tracking things, building upon that relationship, making it less transactional and more reciprocal, as you said, I think, is so, so important and one way that we can just slow down a little bit in our day-to-day. There's always we all have five minutes that we can take to look out our window. And I'm here in New York and staying with a friend this weekend. We were looking at the garden right outside of her apartment window and I was like, oh, that's a sycamore tree. And she was like you know, I've lived here for four years and it never occurred to me to even wonder what type of tree that was. And she was like I'm so glad that you told me what type of tree it was. And she's like now I'll know, and now I can recognize it and and so I think even getting having some fun with, like identifying different plants and trees and types of clouds and that childlike wonder is so medicinal, so medicinal so much, though.

Is there one bit of advice that you would leave people with on? It's like it's a big question, so don't put too much weight on it, but like what is something people can do to be with the wholeness that we're feeling in regards to climate distress and to tap into that all and that?

yeah, I guess that all as we work towards something greater, something more optimistic together there's a line from one of Martin Luther King Jr speeches that has always really stuck with me where he talks about the arc of the moral universe, and I think the more we can feel into the fact that we are part of the earth, we are an integral part of this ecosystem that is starting to buckle under the weight that we've put upon it, the more we. This is maybe slightly a hot take, but I kind of think we need to reframe the climate crisis as a human crisis, because when I, we don't exist without it.

Yeah.

And the earth has been around for a really long time and she is incredibly resilient, not to put binary pronouns on the earth. But the earth is incredibly resilient and will exist far longer than any of us will. And when I think about that, when I think about the fact that, okay, I am part of the earth and the earth will survive in one way, shape or form it might just not include humans Then I, for some reason, that brings me a lot of comfort. Maybe that doesn't make other people feel as much relief. but I I'm like, okay, the arc of the world. I find it oddly comforting too. Yeah, I thought of it like that, but it's beautiful.

I just Dark and beautiful.

It's a little bit dark and it's like. You know, earth will go on, but if we, as humans, want to continue to exist on this incredible planet, we need to do something about it. You know, and I think that that that idea is both comforting and energizing for me, and I think that's what we need is we need to find that balance between, like, tending to the pain and suffering and also motivating ourselves to continue finding solutions that are holistic and inclusive and integrated. If we want to, if we want to continue yeah, Definitely.

Thank you so much for taking time to share so deeply about these important things with us today and help us be with the wholeness and find that sense of awe as we move through this world. Do you mind sharing how we can stay in touch with you, how people can support you and your work? I know you know we have two listeners from all over not a ton in the UK but I'm sure that those who can engage with you would love to 100%.

Well, thank you so much for having me. Honestly, these kinds of conversations are so important to have with each other, with our friends, with our family, with people who feel the same and different than us, and I love that we were able to yeah, to go so deep. So people can find me on Instagram. My Instagram is dailin C, d-a-i-l-l-e-n-c. The work that I do with Bidu is available on gowithbiducom. We are also go with Bidu on Instagram, facebook, all of the socials. And then the organization that I work with in Guatemala is called Seeds for a Future, and you can find us at seedsforafutureorg seedsforafuturecom all socials. And do feel free to drop me an email, drop me a DM If this is something that resonates with you. There are definitely so many resources out there that I can point you to. I would say, if you're invested in having these kinds of conversations, which I think it's so important that we all do check out the Climate Psychology Alliance. They offer free therapy sessions three free sessions for folks struggling with climate distress and other mental health challenges around the climate crisis and they host a variety of what are called climate cafes. So it's kind of informal group discussions guided by mental health professionals, where we talk about this kind of stuff and talk about the way that people are feeling and the many paradoxes of climate psychology, and I've found it to be a really wonderful and supportive space.

So yeah, Thank you so much for sharing all of that, and I'll be sure all of those Instagrams and links will be in the show notes so you can stay connected with those really impactful resources. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to how the wise one grows today. If this podcast has been impactful in your life, can you support it by following and subscribing to this podcast on your favorite streaming platform? This will make sure you never miss an episode. All you have to do is go to the show page for how the wise one grows and hit the plus or the follow button in the top right hand corner. While you're there, go ahead and leave a review, preferably a five star review, and share an episode with someone you love in your life. And if you want to support even further, you can join the how the wise one grows dream team and become a part of a group of magical people who support this podcast every month, and you'll even get a special shout out in an upcoming episode. Until the next time, let's keep taking it one breath at a time. Travel is one of the things that helps me grow the most, and that's why this year I decided to put in some time to find the best travel rewards credit card that I could and I ended up getting the Chase Sapphire preferred credit card and so far I love it. It's got a ton of flexibility, it gives you great rewards points and when you sign up you get some bonus points and I actually have a referral link in the show notes. If you are interested in getting a Chase Sapphire preferred or Sapphire reserve credit card, it will give you and I some extra little points so that we can continue to travel and grow together.