How to Decide If You Should Have Kids or Not: Family Planning WIth Keltie Maguire (102)

Transcript

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There can often be a lot of talk about you know good and bad reasons for choosing child-free or choosing to have kids.

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I think it's more about like is it a good or bad reason for you?

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Having that honesty with ourselves is really important, and I do think that not just doing it because it's the thing we're seeing other people doing, but really being like why do I personally want this or why do I not want this?

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Hi everyone and welcome back to how the Wise One Grows.

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So today we get to talk about a really really big life question, and that is the decision to have kids or not.

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But before we dive into this really important conversation, let's just take a moment to land here, together with three deep breaths.

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So just take a moment to notice where your body makes contact with the earth and, if it's safe right now, you can gently rest your eyes or soften your gaze, maybe even drop your shoulders down the back, inhale, fill your chest, fill your belly with air, exhale, open your mouth, let it out, inhale, chest and belly.

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Expand, exhale, let it all.

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Go One more inhale and exhale and return to that point of contact with the earth as you slowly open your eyes and return to this space.

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I am so excited for this conversation.

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I know I say that about all of our episodes, but I feel like this is a particularly juicy one.

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And to guide us in this conversation, listeners have sent in their thoughts and questions about this topic and we have Kelty McGuire, a clarity coach, to guide us.

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So just a bit about Kelty.

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Kelty began speaking about her decade-long struggle to decide whether to have kids or stay child-free and her eventual arrival at the decision to embrace a child-free life.

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Kelty began hearing from countless women who related to her story and felt largely invisible and unsupported in the decision-making process.

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She now helps women who are stuck, like she was, to get clarity on whether motherhood or a child-free path is for them so they can live a joyful, dynamic and fulfilling life, no matter the choice.

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Kelty, thank you so much for being here and for having the conversation, having this conversation with us today.

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Um, for me personally, I didn't really realize that it got to be a question to have kids or not until I got to a place in my life where, like I could I guess I could for a while, but where it was more of a reality.

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So thank you so much for holding space for us to talk about this question.

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You're most welcome, and that's something that I hear from so many people, and that was my experience as well.

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I mean, I think intellectually I knew that there was a choice, but based on what I was seeing around me and I guess, sort of the precedent that was set by women in my life, having kids was just what you did or would do.

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So I also didn't question that until I really came to this sort of crisis of faith of is this actually what I want for myself?

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Is this that right path for me?

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Yeah, do you mind sharing briefly about your story of deciding if you wanted to have kids or not and how you finally made that decision?

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Yeah, definitely.

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Well, I think you know, perhaps, as some listeners might be able to relate, growing up, I had the assumption that I would one day become a mom.

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I grew up in a really, I guess, quite traditional household mom, dad, there were three of us kids.

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I was the eldest, the only daughter, and, although it wasn't something that was openly spoken about, as far as this is the expectation for you, again, it was just what I saw modeled around me and, to be honest, it didn't occur to me until much, much later, probably in my early thirties or mid thirties, that I really had not a single role model of a woman in particular, but I want to say almost people in general that had not gone on to have kids at some point, you know, whether through becoming birth, parents or whether adoption, what have you?

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Everyone, it seemed in my life, whether aunts and uncles, family, friends, they were all parents, and so the assumption was that I would do this at some point, but it would be later, and so I treated it as a later problem.

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If you will, a later question because, for a long time I was preoccupied with, of course, growing up, becoming a young adult, going to university, finding myself in different relationships.

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I was doing a lot of traveling, I was living overseas for a time and it was really only, I would say, in my later twenties, after meeting my now husband I was 26, pardon me, 27 when we met that I started to question more like not even so much do I want kids, but when are we going to have kids?

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And I think this was really based on what I saw going around around me, which is that other people are getting married and having children.

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And although there was a lot of me that this idea of having kids didn't really appeal to me on various levels, I thought that I would still do it.

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It was just like I'm not ready now.

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It was a constantly feeling of I'm not ready, not now and again, maybe people can relate to this idea of like, once I do this, once we do that when we're 30, when we're 32, then maybe that's something that we'll pursue.

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And the interesting thing is, I found myself in this wonderful relationship with this man who would be an incredible father really.

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You know, knowing this would hopefully be my would be an incredible father really.

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You know, knowing this would hopefully be my life's relationship.

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You know my big love and although I had this great foundation in terms of my relationship and I had gone to school and I was doing work I loved and I had this support and I felt well-resourced in a sense, to have a child, it was something I still didn't want.

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And I would say I became quite increasingly consumed with this question, like when, and maybe maybe at some point I thought you know, if I have a child, I guess the realization slowly dawned on me, but maybe this is something I wouldn't do.

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But I became so consumed with it that I finally told myself that I was going to stop thinking about it because I wasn't coming to conclusions and that I would make a decision when I was 35.

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And the reason I picked this magic number, 35, and it's one that people may be, you know, nodding their heads as you are this is when we've been told, as women, that our fertility, there's sort of the fertility drop off and there's actually, you know, some truth and also that's not entirely true that that happens.

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But this was the number in my head.

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Okay, 35, I'll figure it out.

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So I thought, like I'm going to leave this until the 11th hour, yeah, and again, like my husband and I we'd often say, like when we have kids or later, like the talking was that we have children, but there was nothing very firm or fixed about that.

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And so 35 arrived and I still didn't know if it was what I wanted and I just kind of kept pushing it off, pushing it off.

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And at that point in time and I'm trying to remember now so I'm 41, six years ago almost I moved from Vancouver, canada, to Munich, germany, which is where I'm now based, and I want to say that partly, I think the move was precipitated by this idea that I saw everyone around me eventually getting married, having a child or children, or at least planning or trying to.

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And I felt, like my husband and I, life was kind of stagnant or standing still.

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And it wasn't bad, you know, it was great.

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I had a business I loved, I um, you know he was doing work, he enjoyed, we had a really, really good, rich life, and yet people were moving to the suburbs.

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They're consumed with, you know, kids are growing up, they're going to school, and so we decided also but he's German, so you know we'd always had this thought or agreement that we would live on his side of the world for some point, and so we moved here in 2018.

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And in my mind, it was also this idea of like let's do something that we want for ourselves, where we're really like enacting change in our own life, as opposed to just sitting around feeling like, okay, well, you know, we're the people without kids and everything else is happening and that's not really what we want.

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And so it's so funny to think back, because I remember friends asking me like so are the two of you going to have kids?

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And I would always say maybe.

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We're not sure, you know, I'm not sure, maybe, not, maybe.

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And after coming here, I want to say probably.

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Within a year or so of arriving in Germany, I thought I have to decide.

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Like I could see 40 approaching, I had this point of been with my partner probably for 10 years and I thought nothing's changing.

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Like I I can think about this question for the rest of my life.

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You know, opportunity to have kids, if that exists for me, would pass me by, and so I had to really do a lot of soul searching and also commit to a decision-making process, like not just hope that the, that the, the answer would come to me, but actually say I'm going to go out and find it, because what so many of us are told is that don't worry about it, you're, you'll just know.

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You'll just know when it's time to become a mom, you'll just know when it's time to have kids, you'll just know this is what you want.

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And I'm thinking okay, I'm now 35, 36, 37 years old, I don't just know.

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And so I started working with a life coach.

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I started really engaging with the topic.

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I became what I call child-free curious, so really noticing that there were communities of women who had actively chosen this path for themselves, and where I ultimately ended up was feeling like I don't belong on either side.

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I don't identify with the moms that I know, and I want to say that I knew women who, sure, since you know I wanted to be a mother, since I was a young girl, I had friends like that.

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But I also knew women who said, meh, I'm not really sure if it's what I want, I'm not really sold on it, I'm kind of ambivalent, it doesn't sound that great to me, and ultimately they would become, they would become moms, and for me that was always this feeling of like it's not personal abandonment, but sort of this feeling of it's inevitable.

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Of course I'm going to have a child and so I didn't.

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I didn't identify with any of that.

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And yet when I saw the child-free community or communities online, I also did not identify with this, really, you know, strong sort of position of likewise never wanted it.

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Kids are gross, you know, parenting stupid, like lots of really kind of negative perspectives on this all, and I thought what is wrong with me?

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I feel so weird.

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There must be something wrong with me.

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Like, do I need to go to the doctor and get my hormones checked?

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Am I broken as a woman?

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Why am I not so?

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Why am I so unfeminine?

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Like, what is wrong with me?

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Is this because of what happened to me, you know, in my youth?

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Is whatever that said?

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Slowly and it was really a process I came to not just recognize that I wanted to stay child free, but that it was more of an acceptance of that desire.

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I think for a time I had recognized that becoming a mom was not for me, and yet I was judging myself because of the messaging that we get that that is not the okay thing to do, and so, I guess, to sort of wrap up my long story, which is, of course, very abbreviated, it was really about starting to show myself some compassion and understanding that this, I believe, is just who I am, or who I've become through the experiences I've had in my life, and that there's nothing wrong with a not knowing, with feeling ambivalent, and there's nothing wrong with choosing a child free path.

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So it's, it's been a few years since that point and, as you shared, um, in your lovely intro, I've now heard from so many other, you know, folks of all genders saying like this is my story too.

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I totally identify with this.

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I don't know what I want, I don't know which is which is for me.

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So oh, kelty there, everything you just said I am so excited to dive deeper into.

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And as you were talking and you said the term child-free, curious.

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It reminds me a lot A few weeks ago I believe it was episode 88, I'll have it linked in the show notes.

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We did a series of sober curious conversations and I believe Ruby Warrington founded the term Sober Curious and has written Woman Without Kids about this topic as well.

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Yeah, and I think it's so important for us to start questioning things like this.

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Like when I heard the term Sober Curious, I was like I had no idea that that was me and I also like didn't really have this is silly to say but like I didn't really process that not drinking was an option.

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If you like weren't an alcoholic, like I thought like, oh, like you have to have a really hardcore reason to not drink.

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And now I don't have any issues with alcohol, I just don't do it.

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I don't drink because I don't like it.

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And it feels like to me this conversation about the decision to have kids or not really roots in the heart of this podcast, which is like how can we live with intention and authenticity?

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Yeah, and I'm so glad that you are holding space for people to explore this very important decision within themselves.

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Thank, you.

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And how you talked about.

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You know, my background is in mindfulness and when you were talking about as you came to your decision to not have kids, it seems like two ingredients that really supported you in that were steeping in radical acceptance and radical self-compassion.

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Because there are so many stories from society we're getting that are telling us so many other things about like, oh, it's unnatural to be a woman and not want to have kids, it's shameful, it's selfish, like the list can go on and on and we'll dive deeper into that, but I think that capacity to really listen to yourself and meet all of those parts with acceptance and compassion is like kind of the secret sauce to everything 100% yeah, and I love what you said about really like at the root of this, all it's about living with intention and being conscious and conscientious, and it's something that we're not taught to do.

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It's like we follow this script.

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We act as we see others around us acting and we never stop to ask ourselves is this for me?

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Is this a right path?

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And those who question it, of course, were effectively scorned for doing so.

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And we're told that that's not the normal thing in the normal way.

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Absolutely, and you know that choice is being taken away from so many people too.

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And acknowledging like we do have agency in this decision and deserve that autonomy.

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A hundred percent.

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It's a privilege, I tell people, if you have an opportunity to make this decision, that is one that so many women in this world, for a multitude of reasons, don't have.

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And so if you have that privilege like choose wisely and choose consciously, it's a gift to be able to do that.

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We now have a free, intentional living community on discord where you can come together with fellow listeners to reflect on the conversations we've had on the podcast.

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We not only talk about the podcast but really all the things that support us in living with intention.

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There's also a link in the show notes to join this free community and I would be honored to have you there.

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We actually had a listener submit a question about people who identify in the queer community.

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They wanted to know, you know, if it's something that people in the queer community have an easier experience with that decision, being a being in a community where it's more normalized might make that experience more supportive.

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Yeah, no, it's definitely something to consider and I think, as with you know, certainly any identity we may have, there's going to be challenges and there's also going to be perhaps, like you know, benefits, if you will, or things that are made easier.

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And you know, for example, some people say like, for example, gender roles are a really big concern for a lot of people in cis heterosexual, you know, partnerships, and so that is something that you may not see, for example, with two women who are in partnership, because there's more of an understanding of how those roles might be slid and what that might look like, or less of an assumption, I should say, of how those things might be, not even just within the relationship, but like external to it.

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I think, a lot of times, heterosexual couples say, you know, we want to have that balance or we want things to be equitable, but that's not always what happens, based on how the world has been set up to support or not support them.

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Yeah, and even as someone in a female body like I, don't think it will ever be equitable, because this is directly impacting my body and impacting me on like a cellular level no matter how supportive your partner is and how much you try to split roles, if you are the one that's having a human come out of your body, that is an entirely different thing, and there's so many risks about having a kid and what that does to you and your physical health that people don't talk about.

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And the more women I speak to who are in this phase of trying to get pregnant having miscarriages, having really hard illnesses arise because of these things it's just something that women are not nearly supported enough around and I think it's a really important element to call into the conversation is like the the physical risk it puts women at yeah, yeah, and oftentimes so much more than need be.

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Right, you look at, yeah, you look at um maternal mortality rates in places like the us I believe the uk as well especially among populations like the black population community, for example.

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It's like it's, it's horrible and those deaths should not be happening.

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But the fact of the matter is, as it stands now, there are greater risks and greater risks, specifically for certain groups of women.

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Yeah, so one listener sent in this question that I kind of want to step into.

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I'll play their response.

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The audio on this one's a little spotty, but it's short, so just bear with me on that.

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I am a 31 year old female who is child free.

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I have always pretty much felt like I would not have kids and still feel, about 95%, that I do not want to have children, although as I am starting to age and my biological clock is beginning to tick, and if I did have kids I definitely would prefer not to be an older mom.

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So my question is are there specific questions that you recommend asking oneself to help define thought clarity, especially self to help define that clarity, especially if you are feeling like you are more likely than not going to have children.

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Yeah, so that question coming in is just like where do people start when they're trying to decide if they want to have kids or not?

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Yeah, oh, it's such a good question and what I want to recommend is, first of all, being okay with being in discomfort and uncertainty, which nobody's really okay with, right, we hate that and that's part of what makes this tricky is not just the enormity of this decision, but the fact that it feels so bad, not knowing and there's so much doubt around what's going to happen if I make the wrong decision.

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But being okay with where you're at and recognizing that there are so many other people who also either feel or have felt this way I know I hear from a lot of people like that's brought them a lot of comfort, for example, finding myself and our community.

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Second of all, what I really recommend and again, this is tough to do, but is to set aside the question of do I want to have children or not and really look at how do I want to live.

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You know, how do I want my life to look.

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Yeah, so doing like a zoom out approach, if you will, or what I like to call it is, you know, starting on the macro level and moving more to the micro, and so looking at things like, really, what are my priorities in life, how do I want to spend my time and energy, what are my unique wants, needs and desires?

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And these are questions that we are so seldom encouraged to ask, that I mean I can't tell you the number of people in the work that I do as a clarity coach who I ask them, whether it concerns career, this decision, what have you, what do you want?

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And the answer is I don't know, I have no idea what I want.

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And there are, of course, so many reasons that we are disconnected from our bodies, from our own wisdom, from our inner knowing.

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But again, taking that do I want to have children?

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Question out of the equation and just being like what do I know for sure about how I want to live my life, what my values are, what my priorities are, et cetera.

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And the more we can.

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Yeah, I like to think of it as like the question isn't necessarily like if you want to have kids, but it's like what are the potential life paths that you can pursue?

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I love that reframe.

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Sorry to cut you off, no not at all.

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I'm glad you, I'm glad you find that helpful and it, yeah, it's.

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You know, it's ultimately about like setting the stage, so to speak, or thinking about this as like a canvas upon which we're then going to like draw a picture.

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First, we need to look at what's this canvas we're working with and, of course, there may be certain things that we learn about ourselves in our lives that are going to be compatible with both paths.

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But there also may be realizations that a person has that makes them say or give pause to Ooh, I'm not sure if having children is going to be that right thing for me.

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Um, so that can be a good starting point and that's I mean, that's work that's going to serve us in all areas of our life and it's continuous.

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It's not like we say, okay, now I know myself, you know.

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Therefore, now I can make this decision, but again, becoming more well acquainted with ourselves and we can do that through journaling or through working with a coach or therapist, or through meditation and just doing reflection, but really asking ourselves some of those fundamental questions.

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The other thing to look at is, really, what are the key sort of fears that are keeping me stuck in this decision.

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So what am I?

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What am I really afraid of when I look at either decision or maybe that, let's say the path that I'm really considering pursuing?

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And so, in my case, I was strongly leaning towards staying child free and when I thought about, like what about?

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That scares me, that, uh, that's preventing me from really leaning into it, it was the classic things that you know, a lot of people are going to say and think is like what if I regret it when I get older?

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What if I die alone?

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What if?

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What if?

00:23:32.027 --> 00:23:32.387
What if?

00:23:32.428 --> 00:23:43.730
it was like it was future tripping Right and, and those questions are worth certainly unpacking, exploring, and there are certain things that we can, we can do to help manage and calm those fears.

00:23:43.730 --> 00:23:50.911
And second to fears, it's also about looking at the beliefs that we have about, like, what does that mean if I choose that?

00:23:50.911 --> 00:23:54.788
Like if I am a woman who doesn't have kids, what does that mean about me?

00:23:54.788 --> 00:23:56.536
What do I think or feel about myself?

00:23:56.536 --> 00:23:59.185
What do I perceive others are now going to think about me.

00:24:00.269 --> 00:24:05.729
The belief might be I'm going to be, you know, an outsider amongst my friends and family if I don't have kids.

00:24:05.729 --> 00:24:27.345
And so, again, taking a deeper look at that and really looking at you know our own beliefs and then, if there are ways to reshape those in such that they will serve us better, to like it's like by really looking these things in the face, so to speak, it can help us clear the way, like looking at our monsters and being our demons and saying, okay, who are you?

00:24:27.345 --> 00:24:33.865
Then we can really start to actually connect with what we want, because we're clearing away the weeds, so to speak.

00:24:34.707 --> 00:24:37.381
Yeah, that reminds me you know a lot of what you're saying.

00:24:37.381 --> 00:24:46.950
I feel like it's really steeped in mindfulness work and that belief system of like noticing what are the stories you're telling yourself about this?

00:24:46.950 --> 00:24:49.226
What are, what is that soundtrack in your head?

00:24:49.226 --> 00:24:57.608
And then I really love Byron, katie and the four questions about like um, is this is this belief true?

00:24:57.608 --> 00:25:00.693
Can I absolutely know it to be true?

00:25:00.693 --> 00:25:04.528
And then I think it's like what if this belief wasn't true?

00:25:04.528 --> 00:25:09.528
You know it allows you to really settle with like what stories am I telling myself?

00:25:09.528 --> 00:25:14.685
What realities quote unquote am I painting for myself that might not actually be there?

00:25:14.685 --> 00:25:17.632
And how can I reframe this?

00:25:17.632 --> 00:25:28.307
And not even like reframe, but like take a new perspective and take a new seat in the way I relate to these societal stories and these stories that are in my mind.

00:25:28.667 --> 00:25:31.740
Yeah, I totally agree, and I love Byron Katie's four questions.

00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:35.328
Those are so good and they could be so good for doing this sort of beliefs work.

00:25:35.328 --> 00:25:43.122
I want to add that I think there's a point that we can get to with that where, intellectually, we know or believe something else.

00:25:43.122 --> 00:25:47.384
So we say, of course it's fine to choose a child-free path, for example.

00:25:47.384 --> 00:26:10.490
However, it's something else to really like embody that and to feel it, and I think for a lot of us it's more of like an emotional or even physical sort of sensation that we have, that like something is amiss or something feels unsafe, and so there's no one size fits all solution for that, except to advise that like there are different modalities that we can sort of employ and that it's something that takes time.

00:26:10.490 --> 00:26:15.255
And I also think it's about compiling the evidence.

00:26:15.275 --> 00:26:25.740
As I say, I like to think of myself as a bit of a detective, like how can we like put on our magnifying glass or seeing eye and think about what evidence do I have to support a different belief?

00:26:25.820 --> 00:26:39.346
So if we say it's fully normal to to choose the child-free path, to look at, you know, who do I, who do I regard as being like a very, you know, normal, healthy, well-adjusted person, if you want, you know.

00:26:39.365 --> 00:26:41.154
Of course we can also look at what is normal.

00:26:41.154 --> 00:26:42.119
Do I want to be normal?

00:26:42.119 --> 00:27:04.511
But like really looking at assembling a new way of viewing the world based on experiences we've had, based on people we know, based on all these other things that we know to be true that may be outside of this arena, Like, for example, if we feel really fearful to ask ourselves you know, when have I felt really fearful making a big decision and yet it served me well, despite my uncertainty and so, knowing I've done this before.

00:27:04.511 --> 00:27:07.005
It's okay for people not to like what I choose, you know?

00:27:07.005 --> 00:27:12.631
Oh, there was that time I switched my program at university and I dropped out of med school and my parents were pissed off or whatever.

00:27:12.631 --> 00:27:20.329
That can then reinforce like, yeah, but that served me and that was good and that was hard, but they got over it or they didn't, but like, I dealt with it.

00:27:20.410 --> 00:27:25.111
So yeah, developing that deep sense of self-trust within yourself.

00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:26.779
Yeah with it.

00:27:26.779 --> 00:27:29.003
So yeah, developing that deep sense of self-trust within yourself.

00:27:29.003 --> 00:27:33.289
Yeah, yeah, that's a big piece for sure.

00:27:33.309 --> 00:27:38.864
Okay, if you were listening to that and just thought, darn like I really wish I was taking notes for that.

00:27:38.864 --> 00:27:47.825
Don't worry, I nerded out for you and I have created a kids or child free cheat sheet based off of Kelty's wisdom from today's conversation.

00:27:47.825 --> 00:27:50.392
So just click the link in the show notes to get the guide.

00:27:50.392 --> 00:27:59.712
Oh, and also, if you don't already, you should totally support this podcast by joining the dream team for as little as $3 a month.

00:27:59.712 --> 00:28:13.930
There is also a link in the show notes to join and support the operating costs of this lovely offering I want to share from this next listener.

00:28:13.930 --> 00:28:27.285
They were kind of reflecting on some of the hardest parts about making the decision-making process for themselves, and this one I love because it came from a man, which I know most of this conversation is around women.

00:28:27.285 --> 00:28:42.214
It's easier to talk about when we are women, but it is important, I think, to acknowledge that it's a choice that you should absolutely make for yourself, and it's not necessarily one that happens in isolation, you know we're often working with another partner.

00:28:42.255 --> 00:28:45.897
So that's another layer of the dynamic we have to sift through.

00:28:45.897 --> 00:28:52.673
But here is a submission from our next listener.

00:28:58.701 --> 00:29:03.051
Growing up, I never really thought about what being a dad could look like.

00:29:03.051 --> 00:29:20.890
I never envisioned myself as a dad, and it's only in the last couple of years, now that I'm married and more people around me that are my contemporaries are having kids, do I think about what it would be like for me to also be a father, and it really mostly just terrifies me.

00:29:20.890 --> 00:29:35.020
I think that fear of messing up or not being good at it is probably the biggest thing that's holding me back, and also just not knowing if it's something that like.

00:29:35.020 --> 00:29:39.913
Is it something that I really want to do or does it just look like fun on Instagram?

00:29:39.913 --> 00:29:41.583
I guess is the like.

00:29:41.583 --> 00:29:43.125
I just don't.

00:29:43.145 --> 00:29:56.108
I have no idea what it would be like, and maybe it's one of those things where you just like don't know what it's like until you do it, and I don't know if I'm ever going to be able to like take that leap confidently, but I guess we'll see.

00:29:56.108 --> 00:30:28.874
Because I don't belong to a really strong family unit like my extended family I'm not very close with and I'm not super close with my parents, and because I don't belong to any sort of like religious community, I feel like I don't have a very clear like reason or methodology or like focus on, like why kids should be part of my life.

00:30:28.874 --> 00:30:44.612
So until I figure that out, I feel like, until I figure out why I want to have kids like a really concrete reason and feel like it's true for me, I don't think I'm going to do it.

00:30:45.500 --> 00:30:47.347
So there's a lot in that.

00:30:49.142 --> 00:30:50.625
Yeah, what an amazing message.

00:30:50.625 --> 00:31:05.691
First of all, and I just want to commend the thoughtfulness of this person and how self-aware he seems, and I can already tell how much thought has been put into this, or at least the enormity of this decision, which, a it's enormous.

00:31:05.691 --> 00:31:11.061
B I mean it's one of the only things in life that we can't try on for size before committing to.

00:31:11.061 --> 00:31:19.066
I mean, there's perhaps other examples, but to like such an extent as this, no, I think what he says at the end is really important.

00:31:19.066 --> 00:31:23.085
You know, until I find a reason why I want to do this, I'm not going to do it.

00:31:23.085 --> 00:31:27.930
And I think we should be asking ourselves why am I choosing this path?

00:31:27.930 --> 00:31:33.188
And sometimes the answer is as simple as because I don't want to I mean, that's a great reason or because I want to.

00:31:33.188 --> 00:31:35.182
You know, parents also say because I want to.

00:31:35.281 --> 00:31:47.005
But I think we we need to have honesty with ourselves in terms of what our drivers are, and I know there can often be a lot of talk about, you know, good and bad reasons for choosing child free or choosing to have kids.

00:31:47.005 --> 00:31:53.749
Like, well, if you say you're having kids because you want someone to love or you want to have the connection in your family you didn't have.

00:31:53.749 --> 00:31:54.869
That's a bad reason, right?

00:31:54.869 --> 00:31:59.472
Some people might say that, and I think it's more about like, is it a good or bad reason for you?

00:31:59.472 --> 00:32:00.153
Like, can you be?

00:32:00.153 --> 00:32:03.335
Do you think that that is a good reason to have a child?

00:32:03.335 --> 00:32:08.077
Do you think you can offer that child what that child needs and support them in a way?

00:32:08.077 --> 00:32:09.547
The child needs to be supported.

00:32:09.547 --> 00:32:22.505
And so I think having that honesty with ourselves is really important, and I do think that not just doing it, because it's the thing we're seeing other people doing but really being like why do I personally want this, or why do I not want this?

00:32:22.505 --> 00:32:26.884
Now, I certainly can understand what he's saying about.

00:32:26.884 --> 00:32:44.586
You know, if we haven't had, for example, like, healthy relationships with our own parents or within our own family, or even if we don't have that closeness right now to maybe see, for example, relationships between a sibling and a niece or nephew, it can be hard to know what that may look like for us, or that we don't necessarily have someone that we can speak with about this.

00:32:44.586 --> 00:33:09.621
But I think, if we're willing to do the work for ourselves and this again, like this, is based on a 30 second audio clip, but what I hear is a man that he's so cognizant of what is going on for himself and what his situation has been, and he strikes me as someone who's probably done quite a few work, quite a bit of work as far as his own self-development, and I just think you know these are the type of parents that we need in this world.

00:33:10.963 --> 00:33:15.073
However, just because you would be a great parent doesn't mean you should parent.

00:33:15.421 --> 00:33:27.362
I think I would be probably a really good mom in many ways, and yet, for various reasons, it's the path that I've not chosen for myself, and so, yeah, I mean taking a look at things.

00:33:27.403 --> 00:33:52.631
I guess the last thing I want to I want to offer is, although there's no real way of trying on, for size, what it is to parent, there is opportunity, I think, to have really honest, open conversations with people that we're not very often having, but to say to people like, really like, give me the ins and outs of what it's like to parent, and to ask specific questions, because some people will say, yeah, you know it's amazing or it's really freaking hard, but like, what does that mean?

00:33:52.651 --> 00:33:53.494
What does that entail?

00:33:53.494 --> 00:33:58.672
And so to have pointed questions like what has been most surprising to you since becoming a parent?

00:33:58.672 --> 00:34:01.247
What stage has been most difficult?

00:34:01.247 --> 00:34:05.842
What has been some of the good things for your relationship, your own relationship?

00:34:05.842 --> 00:34:07.285
What have been some of the challenges?

00:34:07.285 --> 00:34:21.768
And so, like being selective about what you want to know, I would also offer although the internet can be, you know, a dumpster fire, we also sometimes can hear and be witness to conversations that people otherwise would not share.

00:34:21.768 --> 00:34:27.246
So, for example, on Reddit, there are various groups and subgroups around people.

00:34:27.246 --> 00:34:31.364
There's like the fence sitters group for people who are trying to decide whether they want to have parents.

00:34:31.824 --> 00:34:42.164
There's a regretful, regretful parents or regretting parenthood thread and so sometimes you can kind of like you know, put your ear to the wall, so to speak, and say what are people saying and what am I hearing?

00:34:42.244 --> 00:35:14.128
That may make me have more awareness of my own situation and like what I recognize or identify the other piece with that is to spend some time with people's children, and people will say, of course, there's nothing like having your own children, and that someone else's kid or kids may drive you up a wall, but I do think it can give you an idea of, for example, parts of parenting that can be really mundane, because there are parts that are or some of the challenges that may come up, or even what a daily routine looks like.

00:35:14.128 --> 00:35:28.621
And if you find yourself, for example, spending a weekend with somebody and their kids, or maybe during the week going to school forget about holiday time but you may see and witness and hear things that make you think, okay, I'm curious, I want to know more.

00:35:28.621 --> 00:35:32.150
Or that made you think, wow, I did not know, this was what was involved.

00:35:32.231 --> 00:35:32.552
Right.

00:35:34.739 --> 00:35:37.686
Yeah, that's all really really wonderful advice.

00:35:37.686 --> 00:35:55.105
Um, and two things that I kind of want to pull out from that is when we're talking about like so many elements are like one, making this choice for yourself, and two, I think it's also really important to like center the child in that conversation too.

00:35:55.105 --> 00:36:19.922
Like, am I bringing a kid in this world to meet like an unmet need I had with my family or these other unmet needs in my life that I'm not have not fulfilled, or is that like, am I bringing this child into the world with the capacity to honor that individual life separate of myself, because, even though it's something that comes from you, that being it's its own form of life?

00:36:20.242 --> 00:36:34.340
um, yeah, and needing to support it and that that's so important yeah yeah, and when they were talking about their relationship with family, it reminded me a bit of the term mother hunger.

00:36:34.340 --> 00:36:38.530
I recently came across this, kelly McDaniel, are you familiar with?

00:36:38.610 --> 00:36:42.284
I'm not, and I'm thinking like why do I not know about this term and this work?

00:36:43.027 --> 00:36:48.590
yeah, I will, I will share resources with you and I will link it in the show notes for others listening.

00:36:48.590 --> 00:37:01.364
But, um, kelly McDaniel has kind of coined the term mother hunger, which I heard through Ruby Warrington and it's kind of the adjacent to sober curious, and I don't know much.

00:37:01.565 --> 00:37:28.583
But from what I have surface level pulled from it, it seems like mother hunger like exists on a spectrum and it names, like these invisible wounds of maybe like missing comfort or safety or guidance from our caregivers and that can cause aversion to wanting to step into parenthood, or that can cause like a desire to like have those unmet needs filled.

00:37:28.583 --> 00:37:38.527
So like really seeing it as like a hunger, like something like needs to be stated yeah, yeah, yeah, and something inside of you.

00:37:38.527 --> 00:37:40.711
Um, so that's just.

00:37:40.711 --> 00:37:44.264
I'll link that for listeners to explore mother hunger.

00:37:44.264 --> 00:37:48.253
But I think it's a really curious thing to think about as well.

00:37:48.253 --> 00:37:54.012
And like, what were our stories told from our parents being passed down about?

00:37:54.012 --> 00:37:56.248
Like, did they regret having kids?

00:37:56.248 --> 00:37:59.048
Were they honest with us about what it was like?

00:37:59.048 --> 00:38:02.340
Or did they always put on a smile and act like it was the best thing in the world?

00:38:02.561 --> 00:38:21.280
You know having more and more spaces where we can explore our own rearing with that and how it impacts us in the decision-making process, yeah, well, and it's funny because now my suspicion is she probably Ruby Warrington probably refers to this work in Women Without Kids, which is a book I've read and I've also had Ruby Warrington.

00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:23.344
She's appearing on my podcast relatively soon.

00:38:23.344 --> 00:38:24.806
We've had that conversation already.

00:38:24.806 --> 00:38:29.152
So, yeah, I know, fangirl moment, right, fantastic.

00:38:29.152 --> 00:38:55.572
So, um, but, but, and actually Ruby and I talk about this idea of this motherhood spectrum, which I also want to just kind of give voice to, and the idea, just like we know, for example, that sexuality exists on a continuum, it's a, it's a spectrum, it's like we've so often thought that people are either gay or they're straight and it's this or it's that, but they've actually shown that there can be sort of this like gradient in between, so to speak, and that that can shift and change.

00:38:55.632 --> 00:39:22.927
And similarly with the motherhood spectrum which he refers to or talks about, is this idea that, like some of us aren't necessarily positioned on one end or the other of, like you know, I really am inclined to or well set up to be, or, you know, personally I'm the kind of person who would want to be a mom and and, and nor are we adamantly on that child-free side, but we may exist somewhere in the middle and it's that ambivalence and uncertainty and that gray zone that is so difficult and uncomfortable for us.

00:39:22.927 --> 00:39:30.431
I think, you know, culturally speaking, because we want things to be straightforward, we revere what is, you know, the black and the white.

00:39:30.431 --> 00:39:33.108
So, yeah, it's, it's now.

00:39:33.108 --> 00:39:33.771
Of course I want to.

00:39:33.771 --> 00:39:38.887
I'd love to actually get into Kelly's work around this, but I'm thinking, oh, I was a bad student.

00:39:38.887 --> 00:39:40.010
I think I know about this already.

00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:42.083
No, you are not.

00:39:42.083 --> 00:39:48.822
There's so much to unpack, yeah, but I do really love what you're saying about so much of life.

00:39:48.822 --> 00:40:01.994
We want to be black and white, but that's not whole and in my experience, with certainty and doubt and really everything in life, like you, can't have one without the other.

00:40:01.994 --> 00:40:08.927
So, like, within every certainty there is doubt and with every doubt there's a bit of certainty, like we can hold both.

00:40:08.927 --> 00:40:15.628
So I think sometimes we think like, oh, I will definitely know a hundred percent for sure.

00:40:15.628 --> 00:40:20.144
Like, yes, I'm supposed to be a mom, I'm gonna feel that way every day for the rest of my life.

00:40:20.264 --> 00:40:37.791
yeah, but you're, in my opinion, not that wouldn't be whole you're gonna have times where you doubt it, where you probably regret it, where, like you, have a wide range of emotions and vice versa, like if you make the decision not to have kids, you might feel totally rooted in that.

00:40:37.791 --> 00:40:43.771
And then there might be days where you, you know, have a longing for oh, what would it have been like?

00:40:43.771 --> 00:40:45.175
Or a doubt that maybe you should have or could have or would have whatever it for.

00:40:45.175 --> 00:40:45.293
Oh, what would it have been like?

00:40:45.293 --> 00:40:48.034
Or a doubt that maybe you should have or could have or would have whatever it is.

00:40:48.034 --> 00:40:55.034
But I think it's important to acknowledge that the presence of doubt doesn't mean you've made a wrong choice.

00:40:55.034 --> 00:41:02.172
It just means you're a whole person and that's another energy that's moving through and it just lives as a part of the experience.

00:41:02.172 --> 00:41:15.043
So, rather than freaking out at every doubt that might arise, like allowing yourself to sit with that and be with it and know that it's just a part of the whole and all things that we do.

00:41:15.844 --> 00:41:20.673
Yeah, holly, that is such sound advice and I couldn't agree more.

00:41:20.673 --> 00:41:30.469
There's such reluctance to embrace this idea that there will be discomfort and there will be challenge and there will be doubt, no matter what we choose.

00:41:30.469 --> 00:41:43.900
And I think part of why some of us get stuck in the middle with this decision for so long is that we want to feel like our decision is really like clean in the sense that there's no uncertainty, there's only a hundred percent knowing.

00:41:43.900 --> 00:41:45.585
There's no ambivalence, there's no grief, there's no uncertainty, there's only a hundred percent knowing.

00:41:45.585 --> 00:41:47.509
There's no ambivalence, there's no grief, there's no challenge.

00:41:47.509 --> 00:41:51.702
And that's just not realistic and I think it's a really harmful idea.

00:41:51.702 --> 00:41:58.422
And I have a lot of people who will say this um, you know I've got comment threads of people saying you know, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no.

00:41:58.422 --> 00:42:00.425
If you're not a hundred percent in, it should be a no.

00:42:00.425 --> 00:42:03.849
And I really I appreciate the idea of what they're trying to.

00:42:03.869 --> 00:42:13.871
I think share here, which is this is an enormous decision and there shouldn't be half-assing it, like we should know and commit okay, specifically becoming a parent that this is what I want.

00:42:13.871 --> 00:42:16.045
But I don't know about you.

00:42:16.045 --> 00:42:21.985
But and I think part of this comes down to personality type as well, but I am someone who is very kind of pragmatic.

00:42:21.985 --> 00:42:23.168
I see both sides.

00:42:23.168 --> 00:42:24.771
I'm a diplomatic person.

00:42:24.771 --> 00:42:31.972
I see the pros, the cons, the benefits of virtually every different scenario in life, which can make me indecisive at times.

00:42:31.972 --> 00:42:41.083
But that's a good thing too, because the fact is, yeah, I mean any mother, and I mean some moms, will say, well, no, it's, I love it all.

00:42:41.083 --> 00:42:42.204
I even love the bad stuff.

00:42:42.204 --> 00:42:45.469
But I have have many mom friends where, like, I don't want to be a mom all the time.

00:42:45.469 --> 00:42:52.561
Being a mom sucks sometimes, it's hard sometimes, and that doesn't mean you don't love your kids, it doesn't mean you've made the wrong decision and likewise.

00:42:52.561 --> 00:42:53.965
I know sometimes you're a bad parent.

00:42:54.065 --> 00:42:54.487
No.

00:42:54.708 --> 00:43:03.791
And I think sometimes within the child-free space as well.

00:43:03.791 --> 00:43:07.304
There, well, if you know you're unsure, there's a part of you that wants to have a kid.

00:43:07.304 --> 00:43:10.072
You're not really child-free BS that you know.

00:43:10.072 --> 00:43:22.909
That sort of thinking is doing a real disservice because the fact is, especially for those people who've been in the middle, if you've been in the middle, if you've been on the fence, if you've been unsure or ambivalent, there is a part of you that wants both sides of this.

00:43:22.909 --> 00:43:34.521
There is a part of you that wants to be a mother, there is a part of you that wants to remain child free, and so I don't think it's natural for us to expect that that part of us is just going to disappear because we've made a decision.

00:43:34.521 --> 00:43:37.829
We can suppress it, we can say, oh no, I'm fine, I don't really care.

00:43:37.949 --> 00:43:45.762
But as an example, you know I love babies and I met my.

00:43:45.762 --> 00:44:01.041
Well, I met him previously, but saw my new nephew for the second time this past summer when I was back in Canada, and like holding this little, like chunky guy who was so cute, oh, I just like love so much and having him in my arms and dancing around with him and thinking I'm not going to have this, you know saying to Chris like, shouldn't we have done this?

00:44:01.041 --> 00:44:03.425
And was it in you know earnestness?

00:44:03.425 --> 00:44:04.907
Was I really thinking we should have done this?

00:44:04.907 --> 00:44:06.590
No, but there's that twinge.

00:44:06.590 --> 00:44:07.753
Well, that's okay.

00:44:07.753 --> 00:44:13.900
It's okay to have a twinge, it's okay to feel like a moment's beautiful and to wonder what would it have been like if I chose this.

00:44:13.900 --> 00:44:16.005
But it doesn't mean I've made the wrong choice.

00:44:17.507 --> 00:44:18.849
Yeah, absolutely.

00:44:18.849 --> 00:44:33.461
And I think when we feel those twinges of discomfort and uncertainty, like it's a great opportunity to mother and like nurture those parts of ourselves with compassion, like how can you hold yourself in that?

00:44:33.461 --> 00:44:37.652
And like nurture yourself maybe the way you wish you had been nurtured as a kid?

00:44:37.652 --> 00:44:42.266
And how can you practice that own mothering within your own being?

00:44:43.126 --> 00:44:45.190
Yeah, 100%, I totally agree.

00:44:46.411 --> 00:45:01.047
Yeah, so something that I think comes up a lot, particularly for women in the decision if they've decided not to have kids is shame, and that's something we've touched on a little bit.

00:45:01.047 --> 00:45:14.989
But I think there's a lot of rhetoric that it's like unnatural, it's selfish, that the list goes on and on, and a listener shared something really interesting about this that I want us to tune into around that topic.

00:45:15.510 --> 00:45:25.715
Throughout my whole lifetime, I've never felt called to have children, despite other women telling me that that might change as I get older.

00:45:25.715 --> 00:45:34.960
And then, in 2022, I was in a traumatic accident that basically made it unsafe for my body to carry children in the future.

00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:54.110
And not long after that, I was talking to a friend who told me that she personally does not feel called to have children in this lifetime because she could sense that in a previous lifetime she had already raised several children and so it wasn't going to be part of her current lifetime.

00:45:54.110 --> 00:46:12.664
And that kind of got me thinking, like maybe the reason why I've never felt called to have children is because somehow I've always known that I wasn't going to be able to and it wasn't going to be a part of my calling in this lifetime.

00:46:14.706 --> 00:46:16.887
I have goosebumps, wow Right.

00:46:18.690 --> 00:46:22.077
Yeah, I really appreciated that share.

00:46:22.077 --> 00:46:33.034
You know, first from the perspective of this person, is firm in their knowing of like no, it's a no for me, and that is lovely that they know that.

00:46:33.034 --> 00:46:41.327
And then I often think, when people know their answer and people say like, oh well, that'll change, or have you really thought about it?

00:46:41.327 --> 00:46:49.469
It really like tries to question the person's ability to trust themselves and like have you thought about it?

00:46:49.469 --> 00:46:51.534
It's kind of like well, of course I've thought about it.

00:46:51.534 --> 00:46:53.608
It's you know, it's my life that I'm living it.

00:46:53.608 --> 00:47:13.579
Just, I think it's really unhelpful when people try to push their perspective on you in response to something of like I know, and then they're saying, well, that'll change, you know, that's writing off some key part of you, versus it may be inviting someone to question it or get curious about why they know they don't want to.

00:47:14.445 --> 00:47:24.416
Yeah, I agree, I think I mean it's almost an insult and I'm curious if anyone has ever asked a man, are you sure what if you change your mind?

00:47:24.416 --> 00:47:31.985
I mean, I'm sure it's happened before, but I really feel like it's not conscious, but part of it is this sort of unconscious idea that women are.

00:47:31.985 --> 00:47:35.715
You know, we're too emotional, we're not sure about our feelings.

00:47:35.715 --> 00:47:47.067
That and I think it also taps into this idea that there is, there should, on like a biological level, be this innate desire to have kids, which you know is a conversation for a different day.

00:47:47.067 --> 00:47:54.052
But there's actually a lot of evidence that suggests that of course we have biological rhythms and urges, broadly speaking.

00:47:54.052 --> 00:48:08.273
But the idea that we have a biological clock that is making us want to have children, we want to have sex, right, like we, like this, this is what humans want, and sex, by, you know, virtue of doing it enough generally will lead to children eventually.

00:48:08.273 --> 00:48:20.936
But you know, we think that women specifically should want to have kids and become, become a mom, and so, yeah, I think it does unfortunately cause people unless they really are confident.

00:48:20.936 --> 00:48:25.686
I think it does unfortunately cause people unless they really are confident, and I think it's maybe a little bit different once you've come to a clear choice with yourself.

00:48:25.746 --> 00:48:42.001
But I know quite a few women and I work with some of them who are almost sure they wanna stay child-free and they're really working to become more confident in their choice, and a big piece of that is they don't have that self-trust because what they're seeing and hearing from other people is you will change your mind.

00:48:42.001 --> 00:48:45.329
And of course, there's examples of people who say well, I changed my mind.

00:48:45.329 --> 00:48:57.195
And I think there are people who maybe were unsure, who changed their mind and became parents, but I actually have heard very, very few instances of people who had decided, who changed their mind.

00:48:57.195 --> 00:49:10.831
Actually, on the contrary, most of the research and evidence is showing that people who make a conscious decision this is not someone who perhaps was unable to have children and couldn't really like reckon with that outcome, but somebody who says I don't want this.

00:49:10.831 --> 00:49:24.271
The occurrence of regret is actually very, very low, probably on a level that exists, similar to, maybe less than, parental regret, which, by the way, is a thing that nobody wants to talk about, but it does exist.

00:49:25.094 --> 00:49:39.092
Yeah, thank you for naming that, and I also, just, you know, can't get over the fact that this person, like now, physically is unable to have kids and they're, like some part of of me I think, always knew and that their friend shared.

00:49:39.092 --> 00:49:58.409
Like maybe in a past life I did raise a lot of kids and like, if you prescribe to that concept in some level, that might take a little weight off of like maybe that's just not what I'm here to do in this life and it kind of lends into that question of, like, what life paths can I take in this one?

00:49:58.793 --> 00:50:05.257
knowing that it doesn't have to be one, and you can do it different ways, and parts of you may have already done it in different ways.

00:50:06.505 --> 00:50:09.956
I got to say Holly and I think part of why I got goosebumps and I'm getting them again.

00:50:09.956 --> 00:50:11.367
My mom calls them angel shivers.

00:50:12.911 --> 00:50:14.896
I love that, yeah, isn't that nice.

00:50:14.896 --> 00:50:15.577
Yeah, there's like.

00:50:15.577 --> 00:50:17.648
It's like when there's something, there's something happening.

00:50:17.648 --> 00:50:40.215
I'm not fully clear on my sense of, you know, reincarnation, past lives, future lives, but I've often thought and I truly feel that in this path, this is not my life, my life choice or path, but I do have that belief and there's a part of me that feels, whether it's in a parallel life or a past life or a future life, although interesting, I had someone who reads the what are they called?

00:50:40.215 --> 00:50:49.056
The Kashuk records tell me I've never had children before, which I found interesting, and I've lived few past lives, which I would in some sense feel I disagree, but that's a story for a different time.

00:50:49.545 --> 00:51:06.344
But this idea that, like, maybe there exists a version of me in some way, shape or form who has children, but it's not in this lifetime, and I just I, I and I think specifically now, with the work I'm doing, that walking this path is about so much more than not having children.

00:51:06.344 --> 00:51:25.436
It's really about encouraging people and offering an example of what it means to live by your truth and what it means to unashamedly be yourself, and that feels like such an incredible gift that I'm giving that people argue that having children and giving children to this world is the greatest gift, and I call bullshit.

00:51:25.436 --> 00:51:31.838
I mean there's so many other ways that we can make an impact, be of service and have purpose.

00:51:32.905 --> 00:51:53.536
Yeah, and I really love what you're saying too, because to me, me I think like living that with that intention and authenticity and alignment of your truest self is like that's what I feel most connected to in this life, and if I were to have a kid, like that's what I would want to model for them.

00:51:53.536 --> 00:51:57.251
And how can you do that if that's not what you're doing for yourself?

00:51:57.251 --> 00:51:58.094
You know.

00:51:58.094 --> 00:52:20.981
So, I think, having that knowing of what intention and living in alignment is for you, and rooting yourself in that and that's your compass, that's your guide through whatever paths you take yeah, absolutely and I think another thing people say a lot around like the shaming of should.

00:52:21.121 --> 00:52:35.985
If you don't have kids, like you know, you're not a good person in society, or like you're, you're going off the path, which I don't think it's a bad thing, um at all, but this is something like Ruby Warrington also talks about.

00:52:35.985 --> 00:52:39.831
Is, like this birth strike, like the conditions of the world right now.

00:52:39.831 --> 00:52:46.896
Like if we're centering the child in this conversation, like let's look at the environment, let's look at the like political state of the world.

00:52:46.896 --> 00:52:52.132
Like in the societal support is society actually supporting women to have kids right now?

00:52:52.132 --> 00:52:54.096
Like no, so why should we?

00:52:54.096 --> 00:52:57.050
And is this planet viable for continuing life?

00:52:57.050 --> 00:52:59.416
Like that's a question that's ongoing.

00:52:59.416 --> 00:53:07.849
So I think these are concerns that we can hold in this conversation too.

00:53:07.849 --> 00:53:15.815
Is like not only how does this root in me and my life, but like in the greater prospect of the world, like what does it mean to bring a life into this world?

00:53:16.385 --> 00:53:30.487
Yeah absolutely, and I think we may have that desire to mother or have a child or children, or parent, I should say, but what we may realize and what we may decide to do is something different.

00:53:30.547 --> 00:53:35.972
Just because and I think that's that can be a powerful question to ask ourselves is like if I was to become a parent, under which, which conditions would I need to do that?

00:53:35.972 --> 00:53:37.217
You know, some people say I would like to parent with a.

00:53:37.217 --> 00:53:39.123
Under which which conditions would I need to do that?

00:53:39.123 --> 00:54:01.733
You know, some people say I would like to parent with a partner and I'm single and I'm of an age where I don't necessarily foresee myself finding a partner, or maybe I don't want to be in partnership with someone, and so for them, they make the conscious decision that, like this is not the path I'm going to be following in life, and this plays in super heavily for a lot of my clients is like the conditions in which they would be having a child or children.

00:54:02.489 --> 00:54:05.954
It doesn't feel supportive and it's a very unfortunate, sad thing.

00:54:05.954 --> 00:54:09.215
And of course, there's a lot of talk of well, why are people not having kids?

00:54:09.215 --> 00:54:16.277
And this is terrible and populations are declining, and I think what governments and the powers that be need to be asking is why?

00:54:16.277 --> 00:54:17.945
Why are people not having children?

00:54:17.945 --> 00:54:18.085
Is?

00:54:22.297 --> 00:54:24.081
the B you need to be asking is why?

00:54:24.081 --> 00:54:25.125
Why are people not having children?

00:54:25.125 --> 00:54:40.137
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00:54:40.137 --> 00:54:51.644

How to Decide If You Should Have Kids or Not: Family Planning WIth Keltie Maguire (102)

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How to Decide If You Should Have Kids or Not: Family Planning WIth Keltie Maguire (102)

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