The Power of Forest Bathing: Healing Compassion Fatigue, Eco-Anxiety & Climate Distress with Daillen Culver (55)

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to How the Wise One Grows. Well, I'm really excited to introduce you to an old friend from college today. But before we get started, let's just take a moment to land here together with three deep breaths. So wherever you find yourself right now, just take a moment to take note of where your body is connected to the earth beneath you.

00:00:45:19 - 00:01:22:09

Unknown

And then think about that energy from the earth, moving up through the body towards the tip of the head and soft and your shoulders down your back and notice where in the body you feel your breath. And take a deep breath Here, inhale filling the chest, fill the belly with air. Exhale. Open your mouth, Let it out again.

00:01:22:09 - 00:02:03:11

Unknown

Inhale. Filling the body with air. Exhale slowly. Let it go. One more inhale and exhale. And you can return to that connection to the earth beneath you. Slowly open your eyes. As we return to this space. Thank you all so much for landing here with us today. I'm so excited because I haven't talked to our guest Daillen Culver for probably like since college.

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Unknown

I feel like aside from like an Instagram message here or there. Yeah, but today we get to talk to Daillen about so many things, including Eco anxiety in forest bathing. This is, I think one of the gifts of social media is seeing like, you know, we live together first year of college by just like total coincidence. And then in this post-college life, it's really been neat to see.

00:02:29:27 - 00:03:05:19

Unknown

We haven't necessarily like caught up, but it's been a cool evolution of how our paths have kind of, you know, very distanced but intertwined in our interests. So I'm really excited to kind of hear about your journey and what work you're doing now. Yeah, I think as much as we brag on social media, that's for me, one of the best parts about it as well is that you can stay connected to two people who you might not have contact with every day or every week or every year, but your paths can then come and cross again later on.

00:03:05:19 - 00:03:30:18

Unknown

And that's happened to me multiple times with people who, you know, are now some of my my nearest and dearest. But we kind of fell apart. But then because we stayed connected in that way, we came back together. So I agree. I love seeing what you're up to and I feel like we both wear many hats and have dipped into some similar pools and similar interests.

00:03:30:18 - 00:04:13:26

Unknown

So I'm happy to do a bit of an overview of what I've been up to because I feel like I've bounced all over the place. To be honest. So after UVA, I kind of by accident ended up getting into humanitarian work. I moved to Guatemala and worked for a variety of nonprofits all across Central America for a few years and then came back to the U.S., worked as a domestic violence counselor in California, and then went to do my master's in international development at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland.

00:04:13:28 - 00:04:51:02

Unknown

That was in 2019. So I've been living in Scotland for the last about four years or so. So my research looked at integrated approaches to chronic malnutrition in rural Guatemala and after I finished my master's, I started a company on a kind of a When the Wild how that happened. Yeah, I honestly, it still seems weird to say that because I never thought that that was something that I, you know, was particularly inclined to do.

00:04:51:02 - 00:05:21:12

Unknown

But my co-founder and I, who we met at the University of Edinburgh and we really connected over the fact that there is very little awareness around the mental health challenges facing folks who work in the humanitarian sector, let alone resources with nonprofits who are already strapped for resources. But when you work in these kinds of impact driven professions, you are exposed to some pretty gruesome things.

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Unknown

At times, you're exposed to a lot of human suffering, a lot of non-human suffering as well, depending on whether you work in on issues of the environment or human rights issues or gender issues. You know, there's there's such a spectrum, but it does take a very real toll on you and the the stronger that toll, the harder it is to do your job effectively and to not just support yourself, but support the people that you're you're trying to to help.

00:05:52:19 - 00:06:21:24

Unknown

So that became really apparent to me when I was working as domestic violence counselor in California. And really struggled with vicarious trauma, where you end up taking a lot on a lot of the same symptoms of PTSD, but just simply by being exposed to the trauma of the people that you're working with. Yeah. And so that was when it really became obvious to me and my co-founder and I started this education initiative.

00:06:21:24 - 00:06:51:20

Unknown

We run workshops and events on a variety of topics. So compassion, fatigue, trauma sensitivity and of course climate distress, which encompasses eco anxiety. So that's kind of my work with be Do. And then I that's what we're called is B do short for be well do good. And then I also just recently took on a role as director of operations for a nonprofit in Guatemala called Seeds for a Futures.

00:06:51:20 - 00:07:16:22

Unknown

I mean, is better to Futuro and we work with rural indigenous communities building home gardens to combat malnutrition. So Guatemala has one of the highest rates of malnutrition in the world, one of the highest I think they were the highest until recently when Venezuela beat them out for highest in Latin America. And a lot of that is concentrated in rural indigenous communities.

00:07:16:28 - 00:08:06:05

Unknown

So we teach people how to grow native plants and vegetables and fruits and herbs and how to cook with them to yeah, re inspire local knowledge and indigenous flora and fauna and also teach people how to be self-sufficient and to not be so reliant on a very volatile food system. Yeah, it's so cool to here. I mean one what impactful work you are doing and on the many spectrums through which you've been doing it, you know, and especially speaking to that like deep compassion fatigue that is a part of, you know, work, nonprofit work in really most any work where you're holding space for others and holding space for healing.

00:08:06:07 - 00:08:43:24

Unknown

And it's cool, I guess I'm curious about when did this component of tending to wellness, how did that relationship to wellbeing integrate in your work? That's such a good question. I think it was kind of a slow burn. It was certainly something that I experienced myself and yoga and meditation and my own kind of wellbeing and spiritual practices definitely became a really valuable coping tool for me.

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Unknown

So that was part of it. But honestly, I think it's something that I've been aware of for quite a long time because my mom does this kind of work as well. My mom is I never knew that. Yes. And my mom is a family welfare attorney, so she is charged by the state with representing children, mostly in child abuse cases.

00:09:09:15 - 00:09:43:06

Unknown

And as you can imagine, that is extremely emotionally demanding work. She sees a lot of really difficult things on a day to day basis and growing up, and I don't think she would be opposed to me sharing this because it's something she's very open about as well. You know, it really took a toll on her ability to be there for her family because she was so preoccupied with trying to make sure her that her clients that these kids were okay as well.

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Unknown

And she's been doing it for 30 years. And I think she's found a kind of manageable balance. But she's also now looking at transitioning out of that work because not many, not many people can sustain it. And that's why there's such a high turnover rate in the nonprofit sector. And it's sad also that these are some of the lowest paid jobs out there.

00:10:09:14 - 00:10:46:15

Unknown

Yeah, social workers, nonprofit workers. It's no wonder people burn out. You know, the the system, the structure is not a supportive one. And especially for people who feel deeply, which I definitely consider myself to be an empath and someone who feels a lot of feelings quite deeply, that that's partially sometimes why you get into this work is because you want to do something good, and then that becomes like both a blessing and a curse because you care so much that you end up burning yourself out.

00:10:46:15 - 00:11:18:21

Unknown

And so my co-founder and I were just like, There's got to be a more sustainable solution. Like, could we all sustain this kind of work for longer and actually make more impact, create more change? If we had the tools to set effective boundaries, to understand our own kind of emotional levels and where we're at and our internal resources and strengthening that kind of community and collective support systems, like is there a better way?

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Unknown

And I don't know, I don't really have an answer, to be fair, but I feel like that Oh, I think that's that caring so deeply should be a strength, not a weakness, you know? Yeah, 100%. And I think it's a in my experience, a growing and like learning as you evolve of how to care so deeply and be that fierce advocate for yourself as well you know seeing seen that inner connection between yourself and other and if you're going to take care of others and organizations and do this work, you have to apply this same advocacy and fierce compassion and care for yourself.

00:12:00:03 - 00:12:33:04

Unknown

So I love to hear the work that you're doing. Yeah. As we're talking about, like feeling so deeply, I think that this is something most people are really experiencing, especially the feelers out there, is eco anxiety and it's something that I think in our generation, particularly in generations younger than us, is more and more present in though, and the way we're moving through the world and experiencing the world is this.

00:12:33:06 - 00:13:02:26

Unknown

In my experience, it's been there's a bit of a fear and overwhelm about the constant state of the earth and the planet that we're living on. So do you mind sharing a bit about eco anxiety and how it impacts people? Yeah, 100%. And just to validate that this is like statistically it is something that is affecting more and more of us and the data supports that and it's something that we need to really pay attention to.

00:13:02:26 - 00:13:34:06

Unknown

And so eco anxiety is one manifestation of climate distress. Climate distress is the kind of larger umbrella term that we use to describe a whole host of emotional and mental challenges that arise when we really have the courage to look at what's happening to our planet, what we are doing to our planet, the harm that we're causing. And these kinds of thresholds that keep passing us by.

00:13:34:06 - 00:14:06:08

Unknown

That and eco anxiety as a term I think is actually a little bit limiting because anxiety is, you know, not always independent from depression, fear, guilt, like. And climate distress is not a perfect term either, but I think it's more inclusive of the often really like complicated and sometimes contradictory feelings that we have when it comes to the climate crisis.

00:14:06:10 - 00:14:50:13

Unknown

So anxiety specifically is rooted in fear, right? It's a forward looking phenomenon. It's this uncertainty about what the future holds. And I think it's important to remember that anxiety is a rational response to the situation that we find ourselves in. It's not abnormal, it is normal, the situation is abnormal, and this is an unprecedented crisis. And so those who experience anxiety or climate distress are not weaker or more sensitive or more predisposed to anxiety or something, we are all susceptible, but it's going to look very different for everyone.

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Unknown

A physical manifestation of anxiety. We usually think of it as like hyper arousal, so hyperventilating, difficulty sleeping, panic attacks, that sympathetic nervous system activation. But that's not always the case because, like I said, a lot of these feelings are often intertwined and anxiety might be accompanied by a lot of hyper arousal, arousal and apathy. So we get pushed to the point where we just don't care anymore, you know?

00:15:17:06 - 00:15:45:12

Unknown

And I think that that like cynicism and disengagement is actually more dangerous than the hyper arousal because it just zaps all of our motivation to act and it stops our sense of agency. It zaps our sense that we actually can do something about it. Definitely. I think it's I really appreciate you naming the wider perspective of seeing it as eco distress.

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Unknown

And I really I think so many people fall into that like despair and depression about way. What's even the point Like, what impact can I make? What can I do. So thank you for naming that something I when you first started talking about bringing our awareness to the crisis at hand, like I think so much of us move through life, it's easy, at least in the West, to kind of distance yourself from it, right?

00:16:16:24 - 00:16:41:00

Unknown

Because maybe we're not experiencing the very real impacts in our day to day when we step outside. There's definitely impacts that are there, but it's maybe not as prevalent as it is in other parts of the world. And I think this is an element where a lot of work of mindfulness can come in is like being willing to bring our awareness to the full scope and the discomfort that's there.

00:16:41:00 - 00:17:12:19

Unknown

But I think when it's not in your face, it's so tempting and on some level, like a sense of protection to not let yourself really see and take in the gravity of what's happening. But when I look at the the teachings of the practices, it's so much coming to like whether or not we choose to bring awareness to things, they're still there.

00:17:12:22 - 00:17:37:15

Unknown

And when we resist it or pretend it's not there, it's more and more suffering. It's going to get worse and worse. So learning how to step into that discomfort of what already is and bringing our awareness to the present situation and then, you know, letting ourselves be with the discomfort, the anxiety, the depression, and the very validated and real feelings that are brought about.

00:17:37:17 - 00:18:11:08

Unknown

But then now I think the key really comes in like not getting stuck in that. How can we let ourselves feel that and then work towards stimulated action and change to, you know, take the necessary change that we every individual must take? But how can we do that on a day to day basis? And how do we do that on a day to day basis without falling into that like burnout and compassion fatigue and overwhelm from these big emotions?

00:18:11:08 - 00:18:47:27

Unknown

I guess in my experience, have there been or for you, have there been some tools that have helped you be with the reality that's present and not deplete yourself as you work towards change? Yeah, I completely resonate with everything you just said. I think as you mentioned in the quote unquote West, I always put that in quotes because I studied development and I'm skeptical of like West, East, Global, North, global, South.

00:18:47:27 - 00:19:18:02

Unknown

All those terms are always, yeah, euphemisms for other things. But in the West, in modern cities, living modern lifestyles, it is easy to live in a state of semi denial. And that's a protective mechanism, right like that. That's what our brains and hearts are doing to protect themselves from the harsh reality. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

00:19:18:04 - 00:19:51:01

Unknown

I think the beautiful part of mindfulness practices and compassion practices is that they start to widen that window of tolerance where it's like because the more you block out the scary stuff and the sad stuff and the grief and the fear and the heartbreak, and the more you block that stuff out, you also block out the R and the beauty and the joy and the ecstasy.

00:19:51:01 - 00:20:20:05

Unknown

And you know, I think that we cannot have one without the other. And that's what I love about, you know, whether it's a meditation or a forest bathing practice. Are those those practices designed to bring us into full awareness? You get to experience both, and I would rather experience both than neither. And I love the work of Joanna macy on this.

00:20:20:05 - 00:20:51:02

Unknown

Are you familiar with her? I've heard the name, but I haven't studied her work. She's the best. And she has a book called Active Hope. She has a bunch of books, but her book on Active Hope is kind of a she's a Buddhist philosopher, so kind of Buddhist inspired argument for optimism around around climate change specifically. And yeah, she has all of these amazing quotes.

00:20:51:02 - 00:21:32:27

Unknown

I wish I had one pulled up right now, but just about how we cannot let the fear of the future rob us of the beauty and joy of the present. And so I've found that allowing myself to feel the depth of my feelings in a supportive environment. So in some cases that might be in community with trusted friends and loved ones, in some cases that might be on my own, like going on solo hikes for with the dog for me is such a cathartic exercise.

00:21:32:29 - 00:22:02:28

Unknown

And just finding those those kind of selves when you're starting to feel really chafed and afraid at the edges, like taking the time and prioritizing the practices that allow you to kind of recoup and replenish. And a lot of the people I know who do this, this kind of work, one of the one of my colleagues from my Compassion program at Stanford is her name is Barb Easterling.

00:22:02:28 - 00:22:29:08

Unknown

She created the first ever climate psychology certificate program for mental health professionals and she has made it her mission to well, she has made it a priority for her to go on, at least to weeklong retreats per year, where she is totally disconnected, totally immersed in nature, because she's realized that that's what she needs in order to be able to continue doing the work that she does.

00:22:29:10 - 00:22:58:27

Unknown

And it's different for everyone. But when she told me that, I was like, Yeah, good on you. That's what you need. Yeah, 100%. I really love that you spoke to how we when we can fully be with that wholeness of the present moment. It's not just that darkness that's there. There's that hope too. There is that beauty, and there are the gifts that can make it possible for us to step into that work and transformation and change.

00:22:58:27 - 00:23:28:19

Unknown

And if we can't be fully where we are, if there is extra energy and effort wasted on this resistance or denial or even beating yourself up for what you're feeling, you're inhibiting your ability not only to appreciate the joy that that is there, but you're stealing some of your energy to put in work towards caring for yourself and caring for the world around us, which I feel like.

00:23:28:19 - 00:23:51:05

Unknown

I mean, I don't know all the ins and outs of this, but it seems like this is where forest bathing can really come in and pair with this eco distress in climate distress. Do you mind talking about forest bathing? It just like the term just sounds like heaven. Just like scrubbing yourself with the leaves is what I picture like leaves, studs, all over.

00:23:51:07 - 00:24:14:12

Unknown

But I have to always clarify for people. I'm like, just so you know, there's no nudity involved in the first thing unless you want there to be. There could be if you wanted. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's not a prerequisite, but it does is a, it's a kind of interesting term that I think generates a lot of misunderstood standing, but it's actually, it's a forest.

00:24:14:12 - 00:24:47:10

Unknown

Bathing is the literal translation from the Japanese of Shinrin-Yoku. Shinrin-Yoku is a practice developed in postwar Japan to address the kind of public health crisis that came about in the wake of mass urbanization. So as all of these people moved into the inner city and were there their lifestyles were radically changed and they were deprived of a lot of the nature that they had been exposed to in rural areas.

00:24:47:12 - 00:25:22:24

Unknown

There were there was a marked rise in all kinds of both physical and mental health challenges. So higher rates of cardiovascular disease, respiratory illness, rising rates of depression, anxiety, psychosis, suicidal ideation, and just these general feelings of isolation and loneliness. So for several decades now, Japanese researchers have been looking at the psychological and physiological benefits of exposure to nature.

00:25:22:26 - 00:26:00:02

Unknown

The term genuine Yoku was coined in the 1980s by Yoshi. For me, me, me, me, as I am so sorry if I'm pronouncing that incorrectly, but he designed it as as a basic framework to induce kind of physiological relaxation and boost immune system function. So it was developed as like a health intervention. Now in the West Forest, bathing is kind of one part of the larger eco therapy umbrella.

00:26:00:04 - 00:26:45:03

Unknown

So it's a form of immersive forest therapy, nature therapy. But eco therapy casts quite a wide net and it represents a variety of practices and techniques. But all of them are aimed at improving health through exposure to and more importantly, interaction with nature. I love hearing that because it's a very common thing for people to be like, you know, I feel better when I get outside, but I don't think we talk often enough about like the very evidence based work there is that there are real reasons and physiological things that are happening within the body in the mind as to why you do feel better.

00:26:45:05 - 00:27:17:16

Unknown

So I love seeing that this and if I'm if I'm remembering correctly correctly, I think forest bathing came in as like more of a preventative to or like now it's used more as preventative care. And I think that's such a beautiful thing for us to be thinking about too, is how can we make our day to day activities, support our overall wellbeing and prevent, you know, get into these points of deep health issues both mentally and physically?

00:27:17:18 - 00:27:50:16

Unknown

Yeah, because there's kind of like two schools of thought that I've observed and I'm always an advocate for more like the middle of the road and taking the best from both. But it was, I think in its first iteration, forest bathing was designed as like a very specific health intervention, intervention with very specific goals of like. And you can see it that way if you choose to as like a way of improving productivity as a way of getting up public health metrics.

00:27:50:18 - 00:28:30:26

Unknown

And I think recently there's been more focus on the kind of spiritual side of it as well. And the those benefits that aren't quite, quite so tangible or quite so quantifiable. And I think we have to take into consider both, right? So there but there is so much fascinating science, and I think that's really important to state that, you know, this was all built on studies done on our exposure to fight and sides of fight and sides are these aerosolized chemicals that are produced by all plants.

00:28:30:26 - 00:29:07:00

Unknown

But the Japanese research look specifically at conifers. So your pines, firs, cypress trees, spruces. So when we breathe in these particular chemicals, our bodies respond by increasing the number of NK cells, natural killer cells, which are white blood cells that kill infected virus infected in tumor infected cells. So it really boosts our immune system. And then not to mention the kind of parasympathetic activation that kind of slipping back into rest and digest mode.

00:29:07:02 - 00:29:35:17

Unknown

When you're outside, there's all kinds of studies on like the effect of birdsong on the nervous system and fresh air. Then, you know, we all know the benefits of fresh air, but then you've got like the like I would love to see a study on the benefit of that kinship with the natural world. I feel like, yeah, that's that's kind of what I'm interested in.

00:29:35:17 - 00:30:10:05

Unknown

Like, and maybe that'll be the new direction of research in the future. I don't know. Yeah, well, I think that's probably the element of forest bathing that I find most a pull. I feel like in the last year. Really. I mean, I've always felt a connection to nature. I feel like really, in the last year or two years, I've been feeling more of that interconnection to nature and seeing this as like, I am not separate from you.

00:30:10:08 - 00:30:36:23

Unknown

Humans are not separate from nature. We are nature and spending really intentional time in nature to reconnect, Yes, with the natural world, but that as a means of reconnecting with yourself and then with those around you too, just finding that interweaving. And I think it goes as pretty contradictory to a lot of what the West says, you know, I think like or the West.

00:30:36:25 - 00:31:08:27

Unknown

But, you know, in the States at least, it's very me focused, me centric machines versus nature and like not interconnecting and weaving the two entities. And I think that disconnection in makes it a lot easier to do harm to the natural world, to not protect the natural world, because you don't see it as much as a live, living, breathing entity as you are and as a part of you too.

00:31:08:27 - 00:31:39:07

Unknown

So I find that really that connection, really key and I think can have a lot of spark towards stimulating change if people are able to be in nature more and find that connection with it. Yeah, completely. I totally agree. I think that so much of the exploitation of the Earth's natural resource is depends upon this idea that we are somehow superior and therefore entitled to exploit those resources.

00:31:39:09 - 00:32:11:05

Unknown

It relies on that idea of separation, because if that's not separation between humans and nature didn't exist, we were too self-interested to exploit ourselves. So we do, like you said, live in societies that are designed to be individualistic. And I think that the the Shinto, the influence of Shintoism on forest bathing, you know, in its roots as a Japanese practice.

00:32:11:05 - 00:32:50:16

Unknown

So I'm not an expert on Shintoism, I'll be the first to say. But I do know it's a it's an ancient Japanese religion. It's still practiced today, and it's based on these principles of harmony and purity and respect for nature and importantly, subordination of the individual before the group. So that exists kind of in opposition to the very individualistic, capitalistic society that you and I live in and UK and the U.S. and Shintoism.

00:32:50:16 - 00:33:25:29

Unknown

That kind of connectedness as a given, it's not as much of a cognitive leap as it is for us. I think, but it's a really important one. And I think I always say in our workshops like the importance of getting outside. It's like if we love it, we will save it. So the more we see the exploitation of natural resources and exploitation of our being as much as the Earth's being, like you said, like we we are animals.

00:33:25:29 - 00:33:53:21

Unknown

Like, I don't know what on earth allowed us to think that we are not. We have instinct, we have physical body is we have physical senses. We will grow and decay and return to the earth like, you know, our body is the Earth's body. And we would certainly not be as inclined to cut off our own leg as we would be to cut down all of the trees and the rainforest.

00:33:53:24 - 00:34:22:15

Unknown

So I think I love incorporating some of my compassion work into my forest bathing practice because one of the principles of compassion is shared common humanity. And this idea that we are not separate, we are not isolated, we are all part of the same living, breathing earth. And that's that's a tough leap, I think, for some for some folks.

00:34:22:18 - 00:34:49:06

Unknown

Yeah, definitely. What does a I guess, more traditional forest bathing practice look and how is it different from like going on a hike or going on a trail run? And then I guess how do you integrate that compassion work into your forest bathing teachings? So I get this all the time. I to be clear, I grew up in Colorado.

00:34:49:06 - 00:35:09:12

Unknown

I have always been super outdoorsy. I hike a lot and I get a lot of people who are like, Oh, I practice forest bathing all the time. I went on a hike last week and I'm like, Yeah, okay, there's a hike now, but still great, still wonderful health benefits of getting outside and moving your body in that way.

00:35:09:12 - 00:35:40:06

Unknown

Don't get me wrong, but when I first experienced forest bathing, it kind of rocked my world because it was pretty uncomfortable actually, the first couple of times I did it because I was so used to going for a hike, hiking from point A to point B, climbing the mountain, getting to the top of the mountain, coming down. It's very linear, you know, And forest bathing is not linear, it's not prescribed.

00:35:40:06 - 00:36:25:28

Unknown

There is no right or wrong way to do it. The kind of principles that I try to weave in are go slow, think less, feel more or be still and get lost. So it's you can incorporate so many different exercises. Usually in most forest bathing practices, there is some kind of threshold that you cross. So there is there is a moment where you enter into the forest and for me, I'll have my participants in some way greet the forest.

00:36:25:28 - 00:36:47:06

Unknown

So we have kind of like a established meeting place. I send them out for maybe ten, 15 minutes on their own. The only rules are, you know, don't don't worry about the time. I'm going to ring this bell when it's time for you to come back. You don't need to look at your you don't need to check your watch.

00:36:47:08 - 00:37:09:18

Unknown

I'll be in charge of the time and let yourself wander. Like, just just greet the forest in whatever way feels most right to you. And then that'll be followed by. And then we kind of come back together and discuss. And then we do another exercise and we come back together and discuss and like I said, that exercise is really very.

00:37:09:20 - 00:37:47:16

Unknown

But to give you some examples. So one of my favorite ones is what I call my tiny mantra exercise. So I made all these tiny little cards that I ask people to pick from, and they all have different words written on them, words like mother, fertile seed spawn particles, wind like just all kinds of words. And whatever you choose becomes your tiny mantra.

00:37:47:16 - 00:38:21:18

Unknown

And you have, you know, 15, 20 minutes where you go find a place to sit or preferably lay and really feel the weight of your body on the earth and notice the space around you with that word in mind. And it's incredible what people come back with. Like, some people have such powerful experiences during my forest bathing certification training.

00:38:21:21 - 00:38:58:11

Unknown

One of the women in my group, she was an older woman and didn't didn't have any kids, I think had recently been divorced and had just started a kind of new life on her own in this quite rural part of Scotland. And she drew the cards that said family. And I think she was already well, she shared with us when we all came back together at the end that, you know, she had already been in the last few months trying to struggling to cope with the idea of what it means to leave a legacy when you don't have, quote unquote, family in the traditional sense.

00:38:58:13 - 00:39:21:29

Unknown

And she was yeah, she she cried and said that she had the most profound experience as she was laying in the grass, realizing that all of these beings around her were her family, you know, and that all of the insects flitting through the shafts of sunlight, those were her family and the flowers growing in the grass next to her.

00:39:21:29 - 00:39:52:13

Unknown

Those were her family. And some it sounds cheesy, but I think when you can actually relax into it and get over that very deeply seated idea that nature is just something for us to use and enjoy and have fun in, but then go back to our nice comfy bed. It's a really powerful practice, so that's kind of a taste of what it looks like sometimes.

00:39:52:15 - 00:40:22:03

Unknown

It's very different every time. Yeah, I mean, this definitely wasn't a I've never been guided through a forest bathing class, but but I was recently on a silent meditation retreat, and it was the retreat place was in the middle of tons and tons of woods and forest that was really beautifully marked. Like they kind of told you when you got there, like follow these colored tags on the trees.

00:40:22:06 - 00:40:47:13

Unknown

It'll take you about this long to do so. Like you had that reference of like, okay, I don't need to worry about time. I don't need to worry about, like, getting too lost. If I just follow these marks, I'll be safe and land where I need. So during one of our breaks, I just, you know, walked into the woods and I had never truly spent time in nature in that way where it was like you said, there was no dust.

00:40:47:13 - 00:41:14:07

Unknown

I had no idea where I was going. I wasn't looking at a map. I was just going to like trust that I was following the paths that were there and that I would, you know, finish in the time that I would work for what was happening around that. So I didn't have that stressor. And just to really be able to drop in the things that you there that I witnessed and paid attention to and could really absorb were just so much more profound.

00:41:14:07 - 00:41:39:20

Unknown

And it just felt like being hugged by the nature around me and was a really freeing experience and an experience of learning to like trust both the nature and myself in that moment, which was was a really big gift. And I'm more and more trying to find ways to so often, you know, I'm probably one of the number one people.

00:41:39:20 - 00:42:00:09

Unknown

It's like, yeah, if I'm going outside, I want to like go on a hike or gone chill, run or like, you know, do you know, have that plan in mind to fit with all the other like things on the to dos, but carving out more and more of that intentional time and space. The way I'm kind of seeing it is to just hang out like you would with a friend.

00:42:00:09 - 00:42:18:06

Unknown

Like, how can I treat my relationship with nature the way I would treat it with a friend? Like when I hang out with my friends, I don't hang out with them. Like to get something like an exercise or set benefits from it. Either. It's like I hang out with you because I love you and I want to get to know you.

00:42:18:06 - 00:42:48:28

Unknown

And yeah, all those benefits will come in too. But that's not the why. So that's that's kind of been my interpretation of what forest bathing can be like is really building this reciprocal relationship between yourself in the natural world. And it reminds me to a lot of the first meditation class I ever took. They explained a friend, As someone you waste enough time with, someone you spend enough time with.

00:42:49:00 - 00:43:11:03

Unknown

And you know, mindfulness is a space to become friends with yourself. That meditation time is when you're just hanging out with yourself, getting to know yourself. And I'm starting to see that mirrored with the natural world, you know, in forest bathing and intentional time spent outside. How can I become friends with you now? How can I really get to know you?

00:43:11:05 - 00:43:46:12

Unknown

Yeah, Yeah. As you were saying that, I was just thinking how many of us live lives where our calendars are planned to the ten minute increment? And so the notion of wasting time is like the ultimate evil, you know, like. But a friend is someone. Yeah. With whom time ceases to matter so much. You know, because you're like, I enjoy spending time with you so much that like and we put so many conditions on our friendship with nature that we don't we wouldn't put on friends.

00:43:46:16 - 00:44:04:27

Unknown

You know, it's like, I need to use this day, this one day that I have out of the month that I'm going to go on for a big hike and I'm going to get up super early and I'm going to get to the top of the mountain. Then I'll come back down before it rains because God forbid, I'm outside when it rains and like and yeah, imagine if you did that to a friend.

00:44:04:29 - 00:44:37:27

Unknown

Like, okay, well, yeah, I can only squeeze you in for 30 minutes at this particular time and we can only go to this particular restaurant. And I'm not going to listen to everything you have to say. I'm just going to focus on like, where we're going. Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, I think as gotten into forest bathing over the last few years as I personally, I think have started to heal, I've noticed that in just a very natural, organic kind of way, my time spent outside has become much more meandering.

00:44:37:29 - 00:44:56:22

Unknown

It's less about getting from point A to point B, and I go to my favorite places because I want to go there and I know the way that it makes me feel. And I'm like, Oh, I need that tonic for my soul right now. And that doesn't. I still love hiking. I still go hiking a lot and I still love camping.

00:44:56:22 - 00:45:27:06

Unknown

Yeah. And you can also weave those moments into your hiking or camping experiences. It's not like an either or. Exactly. And that's something a question I have is how can we weave moments of this forest bathing and intentional connection into our daily lives? Like I had this question in mind knowing that we were going to talk and I my husband, I had to, like, drop off the car to get fixed somewhere, so I had to go meet him or whatever.

00:45:27:06 - 00:45:45:15

Unknown

And as we're, you know, in the parking lot, I'm waiting for him. And I'm like, I could sit here and I could scroll on my phone and, like, spend probably the next like 15, 20 minutes doing that while I wait where like, I see this tree in the middle of the parking lot. And what if I just go see the tree?

00:45:45:21 - 00:46:07:21

Unknown

So I just like, got out of the car and, you know, it wasn't anywhere in a parking lot, You know, it wasn't this crazy oasis that you have in your mind. But I just stood in between these two trees, like looking at the leaves and soaking them in and trying to be really present with them and intentional. And then the time went by and it was it was such a gift.

00:46:07:21 - 00:46:34:07

Unknown

Like, I felt so much more replenished moving into what I had next that day than I would have if I had just done my go to of scrolling through the phone. Yeah, 100%. And that is kind of one example of, of a way that I would recommend incorporating forest bathing principles into your day to day life is finding those tiny moments.

00:46:34:09 - 00:46:55:15

Unknown

The minute you want to reach for your phone and start scrolling, use that as a as as almost like a trigger like, Oh, right. Okay. I just opened up Instagram without even thinking about it. My thumb went straight to that button somehow, which is scary. It's been programed that. Yeah, I'm going to put my phone down for a second.

00:46:55:15 - 00:47:22:09

Unknown

Look around. What is one thing that is beautiful? What is one thing that inspires or that inspires joy or makes me laugh or seems a little whimsical, like the way that that vine is twined around that sign street sign or, you know, there's a there's a researcher out of Berkeley called Dacher Keltner, who talks about he studies the power of all.

00:47:22:11 - 00:47:51:09

Unknown

And the difference between wonder and or is wonder has this kind of grasping to it, this desire to know and to understand, whereas or puts things in perspective because it's there is no desire to to know and understand. It's just this like stepping back and looking at the vastness of the universe, like, whoa, how? And it's humbling in that way.

00:47:51:11 - 00:48:23:09

Unknown

And so I think going for all walks is what he calls them, finding the things that inspire all and find your special places. Like I have special places. Some are closer, farther away from where I live, that I go back to time and time again and you return in every season and you get to see how they change and the way that the, you know, dandelions get all crunchy and brown at the end of the season and then they kind of melt into the soil.

00:48:23:09 - 00:48:56:05

Unknown

And then in the spring, little shoots are so green and fresh and then they start to wilt and then and just tracking things, building upon that relationship, making it less transactional and more reciprocal, as you said, I think is so, so important. And one way that we can slow down a little bit in our day today, there's always we all have 5 minutes that we can take to look at our window.

00:48:56:05 - 00:49:15:27

Unknown

And I'm here in New York and staying with a friend this weekend we were looking at the garden right outside of her apartment window and I was like, Oh, that's a sycamore tree. And she was like, You know, I've lived here for four years. And it never occurred to me to even wonder what type of tree that was.

00:49:15:29 - 00:49:43:02

Unknown

She was like, I'm so glad that you told me what type of tree it was. And she's like, Now I'll know. And now I can recognize it. And and so I think even getting, having some fun with like identifying different plants and trees and types of clouds and like that childlike wonder is so medicinal. So medicinal. So much, though.

00:49:43:04 - 00:50:20:27

Unknown

Is there one bit of advice that you would leave people with on? It's like it's a big question, so don't put too much weight on it. But like what is something people can do to be with the wholeness that we're feeling in regards to climate distress and to tap into that all and that? Yeah, I guess that all as we work towards something greater, something more optimistic together.

00:50:20:29 - 00:50:55:26

Unknown

Oh, there's a line from one of Martin Luther King Jr speeches that has always really stuck with me where he talks about the arc of the moral universe. And I think the more we can feel into the fact that we are part of the Earth, we are an integral part of this ecosystem that is starting to buckle under the weight that we've put upon it.

00:50:55:28 - 00:51:29:03

Unknown

The more we this this is maybe slightly a hot take, but I kind of think we need to like reframe the climate crisis as a human crisis because, yes, when I we don't exist without it. Yeah, well, and like the earth, the earth has been around for a really long time. And she is incredibly resilient not to put binary pronouns on the earth, but the earth is incredibly resilient and will exist far longer than any of us will.

00:51:29:05 - 00:51:57:07

Unknown

And when I think about that, when I think about the fact that, look, I am part of the Earth and the Earth will survive in one way, shape or form, it might just not include humans, then I am for some reason that brings me a lot of comfort. Maybe that doesn't make other people feel as much relief, but I'm like, okay, the arc of that oddly comforting too.

00:51:57:07 - 00:52:22:14

Unknown

I hadn't thought of that, but it's beautiful. I just dark and beautiful. It's a little bit dark and it's like, you know, Earth, Earth will go on. But yeah, if we as humans want to continue to exist on this incredible planet, we need to do something about it, you know? And I think that that that idea is both comforting and energizing for me.

00:52:22:14 - 00:53:00:29

Unknown

And I think that's what we need is we need to find that balance between like tending to the pain and suffering and also motivating ourselves to continue finding solutions that are holistic and inclusive and integrated. If we want to if we want to continue. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Thank you so much for taking time to share so about these important things with us today and help us be with the wholeness and find that sense of awe as we move through this world.

00:53:01:02 - 00:53:31:06

Unknown

Do you mind sharing how we can stay in touch with you, how people can support you in your work? I know you know, we have do have listeners from all over, not a ton in the UK, but I'm sure that those can engage with you would love to 100%. Oh think thank you so much for having me on and say these kinds of conversations are so important to have with each other, with our friends, with our family, with people who feel the same and different than us.

00:53:31:06 - 00:54:10:09

And I love that we are able to yeah. To go so deep so people can find me on Instagram. My Instagram is @daillenc. I go and see the work that I do with do is available on gowtihbedo.com. We are also @gowithbedo on Instagram, Facebook, all of the socials and then the organization that I work with in Guatemala is called Seeds for a Future and you can find us at Seeds for a future dot org, seeds for a future on all socials and.

00:54:10:09 - 00:54:43:08

Do feel free to drop me, drop me an email, drop me a DM if this is something that resonates with you. There are definitely so many resources out there that I can point you to. I would say if you're invested in having these kinds of conversations, which I think it's so important that we all do check out the Climate Psychology Alliance and they offer free therapy sessions, three free sessions for folks struggling with climate distress and other mental health challenges around the climate crisis.

00:54:43:10 - 00:55:27:27

And they host a variety of what are called climate cafes. So it's kind of informal, just group discussions guided by mental health professionals where we talk about this kind of stuff and talk about the way that people are feeling and the many paradoxes of climate psychology. And I've found it to be a really wonderful and supportive space. So yeah, thank you so much for sharing all of that, and I'll be sure all of those Instagrams and links will be in the show notes so you can stay connected with those really impactful resource is Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to how the wise one grows today.

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