Understanding Behavior through the Lens of the Enneagram with Chelsie Engle (65)

And so, again, the Enneagram doesn't put you into a box and tell you how to behave or how you behave, opens the box and lets you see that you can have freedom from these behaviors and attitudes that are no longer serving you, that are unproductive for you.

Hi everyone and welcome to how the Wise One Grows. The first time I heard about the Enneagram and started to learn about my type, it honestly felt like I was reading a diary of the deepest, darkest thoughts I had and had never told anyone before. And it was really crazy because that immediately made me feel more understood and more compassionate with myself. And that's why I'm so excited for today's conversation, because we get to talk all about the Enneagram with an Enneagram coach, chelsea Engel, and we go beyond just understanding what your Enneagram type is and understanding the Enneagram and really dive into why you do what you do. This episode teaches us how the Enneagram can help us better understand ourselves and those around us and, in turn, have more compassion for ourselves and one another. Before we get started, let's just take a moment to settle in and land here together with 3D breath. So, wherever you are, just take a moment to notice where your body connects to the earth, notice where in the body you feel the breath. Take a big breath in, fill your chest, fill your belly with air, exhale, open your mouth, let it all out Again. Inhale, fill your chest, fill your belly with air, exhale, open your mouth, let it go. Exhale one more. Inhale and exhale and return to where your body touches the earth and you can slowly open your eyes as you return to this space. Thank you all so much for joining today. I'm really excited for today's conversation. We have Chelsea Engle here to talk all about the Enneagram. I first encountered the Enneagram when I was living in Nashville. I was working at a coffee shop Shout out to Ugly Mugs best place in the world. The people who worked there were really into the Enneagram and we got really into it as a staff and kind of all knew each other's types and it really helped the way we worked together. And one of my co-workers who was really into it gave me a book about the Enneagram and as I was reading the chapter about my type, which is a two-winged three, I was like, oh my gosh, I felt like I was reading a diary of my deepest, darkest secrets that I had never told anyone before and it really blew my mind. It really just spoke to all the ways I was feeling inside and it was a big comfort knowing like, oh, I'm not alone in this. So I'm really excited that we have Chelsea here today to talk all about the Enneagram. Chelsea, do you mind sharing, for those who aren't familiar with it, what the Enneagram?

is Absolutely yes. What a beautiful introduction there. And for anyone else who is a type two, you're going to have two type twos today, so a lot of empathy and heart and love and caring going into this beautiful podcast and for you a wing one or a wing? Three, I'm balanced wings. So what does it feel like to tell us?

It's okay, I have two stuff of them.

Prior to doing the work, I was a two-winged three, but now I am aware of when I'm seeing my wings and mostly are mostly within my own type, but just turn on my wings when I need them, right. Okay, love it so for those of you who are new to the Enneagram or have a definition of the Enneagram that's different than mine, this is how I define it it is a self discovery tool, so it is a way for us to go within ourselves and understand the core motivations, core fears and core desires that are driving our attitudes and behaviors. So many of us are living automatically, just within our personality structures, going about our days trying to get our needs, but in the best way we know how, and the Enneagram allows us to wake up to those things, wake up to ourselves and make conscious choices so that we can live more present and connected and be choosing when we want those drivers to be there for us. But instead of living more driven, we live more drawn, so we're more able to say yes to those things that are aligned with our true essence, rather than just saying yes to things without why and that's especially for us too. We're kind of those people, please are a type S. And so a lot of people. I will hear them say oh yeah, I did the Enneagram. You know, at work, right, did the Enneagram with friends. And I'm like, what do you mean? You did the Enneagram Because we think of it as a test, a personality test, but that test is just one kind of not great way to figure out what your type might be. And so I just I will say the Enneagram is an entire system that helps you to deeply dive into, feel, seen, understood, heard and be curious about yourself and the lenses that others wear in the world as well.

So how is the Enneagram different than other personality types? And then you said, like you know, it's not just a personality test you take. Do you mind explaining better ways to learn our type so that we can understand ourselves better and become more seen and understood?

Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. You know there's a lot of beautiful tests out there, a lot of beautiful structures out there. You know you got the strengths finders, you got the disks, you've got the MBTI, you've got. You know there's there's many different. You just named so many. I don't know my job.

I hope I would know a few things like I don't know those very well, but what I do know I interacted with a few of those throughout my career and my time and all of those were definitely eye opening.

But the difference between those and the Enneagram is again the Enneagram is based off of the why, so it doesn't put you into a box and say like this is how you behave. It tells you why you do that, and so there's not really a good test out there who that can. That can get to that, because they mostly focus on behaviors, each of the types. There are nine types, that's it's called the Enneagram, ennea meaning nine, and gram is the diagram, which is a circle that has interconnected aero lines between the types are interconnected and and basically you know it focuses. A lot of the tests will focus on behaviors like have you choose between you know this behavior and this behavior? Well, maybe both are true, you know, or maybe neither are true, but you're kind of forced into picking one. That's getting you know defined as you, even if it's not. And also for me, as a type two, I don't love conflict. I will get into it with people if I need to type. Nines don't love conflict, type sixes don't love conflict, type ones don't like conflict, and so. But why so? Why I don't like conflict is different than why a type nine doesn't, and so, getting a little bit further under the surface of why you're choosing those behaviors, I also feel like, okay, so you take the test and then it tells you your type, but what do you do with that? You didn't, you don't know which things you answer that are about that type, and so the way many of us certified coaches really say is self discovery. So you can take a test. But that's step one. Step two is to go deeper. Do the reading like you got a book. Listen to podcasts. There's lots of panel podcasts out there of other people who are the same type and you can listen to their thinking and hear. Just like you said, it's like a diary, but it's them like talking like you would if you were on there answering those questions. Beautiful community with it's called the narrative enneagram tradition, but what I offer as a coach is it's called the typing session and I sit with you. You are the expert of yourself and I know the enneagram, so I listened to you, your patterns of speech, the things that you desire. I asked you a lot of why questions and I connect you with your type and then teach you about it so that it's that just a that was cool, but like you feel, known, understood and you understand and why you are that type.

I love that. So two threads I really want to pull from, that is one I love that you are really keen into wanting to understand the why. I think that is, like you said, why I felt like I was reading like my diary, because it was like these are all the things I'm thinking in my head and feeling so deeply like these deep core beliefs and wants and how I'm engaging with them. But for me I have noticed, through taking tests again like years later, kind of being like oh, I don't, I'm not answering as much as I would this way before and my type comes out differently. And I'm curious is to are we like, locked into a certain type over time? And I think the really beautiful thing that I loved about the Enneagram at least the book I read was there's like aspects when you're healthy and aspects when you're unhealthy, and I can see the progression of like, maybe taking that when I was more unhealthy to leaning into a time where I am more healthy. That difference. But also, aside from leaning to healthy and unhealthy, can your type change over time?

Yeah, that's one of the most common questions that I get, right? Because, like, why I'm changing and shifting? So is my type changing and shifting? And the short answer is no, because your motivators are not changing your why is not changing? You still, as a type two, want to be loved, wanted, sometimes needed to be appreciated and to be seen as loving, kind, generous and selfless. That will never change. That's not going to change, right? The idea of the Enneagram is to bring awareness to those desires and fears and to again, instead of that being what's in the driver's seat, you're in the driver's seat, so you were unconscious to those before and they were driving you. Now that you're more aware of them, you're able to say, oh, I was doing that because I want them to like me, not because it's what is most authentic to myself. And so, yeah, when I take a test, now, most of those average level behaviors, because people who create tests put the average level behaviors on the test, because most people who come into the Enneagram system have not done the work to come away to themselves, and so those average level behaviors is what they're going to see. You referenced the healthy unhealthy. There's actually nine levels of development. They're called the levels of psychological development that were developed by Riso and Hudson from Enneagram Institute, ranging all the way from unhealthy pathological distractiveness all the way up to the level of liberation. At each of these levels of development, another fear arises. When you're at the tap, you're at your true essence, You've let go and in your level of liberation, you're free from all your fears and desires. Sounds great, right, like yeah, does that? one happen and the human beings. You know we are trying to get our needs met and that's where our ego structure comes in at the second level of development Still healthy, still balanced, but that's where our self-image comes in. And then another level down, still healthy, still balanced, but a little more identified with that ego. And then we go down into the average levels and that's where we become. Now. There's fears and desires compounded on each other from each of those levels and we're more identified with them and our stress arrow comes in and our defense mechanisms come in at this level. And this is when we start getting into the levels of interpersonal control, where we're starting to think how come you're doing that that way, how come they're not doing that that way? And we're identified with our personalities instead of being free from them. And so, again, the enneagram doesn't put you into a box and tell you how to behave or how you behave Like, opens the box and lets you see that you can have freedom from these behaviors and attitudes that are no longer serving you, that are unproductive for you, with clarity, because I can put the core dynamics of what I just described to you in front of someone and help them to, like, dive into that and go like for us as twos at the level of interpersonal control, which is level five. Gossiping Tell me about your background with gossiping and why you may have done it in the past or have you done it in the past as a type two?

You know I'll honestly say like I don't feel like I in my more adult life has have been huge on gossip. I remember one moment vividly with my best friend, emma, when I was in middle school and we were like talking on the phone all the time as you do. And I think I was like gossiping about something and Emma was kind of like you know, like I don't really think that's a cool thing to do, and I was like oh. And then I kind of was like, yeah, I think you're right. I don't really think that is either. And I notice now, when I have these moments of like, if I share something that I'm like, oh, maybe that wasn't okay to share, like someone shared something to me in confidence but it wasn't clear, don't say this. But then I shared it and was like, oh, I wish that didn't feel right. There's something inside of me that's like okay, that didn't feel good. I think it's okay what happened in that moment. But I'm going to be more intentional about that moving forward.

So it sounds to me like you're really awake to yourself around these things. Most people who are in the average levels as a type two again, this is just very specific to our type structure. We want to connect with people again. We want to be loved, wanted and needed, and so when we're central in people's lives, when people come to us and tell us things, that feels really good. So we like to be the knower of all things and like for people to share all other things with us. What ends up happening is as we get swept up in conversations about others when we're just trying to connect, in our minds we have the best of intentions of just connecting with others, but really what we're doing is gossiping or complaining. And so for people who aren't awake to that practice, they'll say and for me personally, when I started using the enneagram for personal growth, I was like, oh no, like everyone's just kind of chitty, chatting and talking and whatever. Like I didn't realize how central I was to like maintaining that gossiping. So when I put that personal boundary in, I will no longer gossip the amount of mental, physical and emotional energy that I had back because I was putting so much of it into oh, I hope they don't tell someone when I just did oh, I hope I don't get thrown under the bus later my shame was just like going crazy. And when I put the personal boundary up is like I'm not going to do that anymore. I was. I didn't have a great friend like you that said that's not very cool to do that. So I feel like if I would have gotten called out, maybe. But, like again, I thought I had the best of intentions, which is what us two do, and we convince ourselves with our pride that we do have the best of intentions and we're not doing anything to hurt anyone because we wouldn't want to see ourselves in that light. So it's one of those like it's just one behavior on the list of many behaviors, that if you can work around and see how so much energy back from that and replace it with a healthy behavior of direct communication or just choosing two, that's one strategy for choose to just like make a big difference in that if they're a gossiper.

See, I feel like for me it comes out more in that people pleasing realm Okay, like really people pleasing and maybe saying or doing things that I think other people want me to do but I don't necessarily want to, or agreeing with things that I don't necessarily agree with, and that's something I'm really trying to hone in on is, like it takes me a little bit to process information too. So, like a lot of times, especially on the podcast, it's like I'm listening to people and I'm soaking in what you're saying, but I'm not necessarily in agreement with everything that someone is saying, but I don't quite have the vocabulary to express that yet. Like I need some time to sit with and you know, in other life situations there's truly just like the discomfort of confrontation and disagreement and this fear of like oh, I'm not going to be loved if I don't agree with you or seem perfect to you in these ways.

Wow, yeah, that's beautiful. I think a lot of what you said, that type two would align and a type nine, and those are twos and nines mist type as each other quite a bit, because nines fear conflict, but they really fear being overlooked, dismissed, loveless and separated, and so to them conflict will equal in their souls. Conflict will equal them being separated from someone. And so they just just kind of dismiss conflict and or try to people please and keep everybody like if you're good and okay, I'm good and okay, and so that all of us can kind of be in this calm inner peace space. And that's why they're called the peaceful mediator, because they will ensure and they can see all sides where it's like I see where you're coming from, I see where you're coming from, let me process this right. And they do want everyone to be seen, heard and understood. But in the meantime they lose their own opinions, their own thoughts and their own needs and fall asleep to themselves because fall asleep to themselves in their inner, knowing, because they're so busy making sure everyone else feels happy and good, that they lose who they are. So a lot of times 9th and 2s will mistype because of that, but 2s, we are much more like the gossipers, the talkers that in your face, people who are going to try to do things for you, give you advice that you didn't ask for, and this is all the negative trait I mean there's a lot of positive traits in us too. But we, we show up even when we're not asked and kind of getting people's business even when we don't really realize we're doing it. We have no boundaries. In that way, nines are much more in the more like laid-back era of let and they'll help you if you ask, but they're not going to come get in your business or yeah, and they probably won't gossip about people and things like that, because that's not nice, like my husband's in mind, and when I was gossiping about people he'd like why are you talking badly about people?

and I was like they was yeah yeah, yeah, I, the 9 element kind of reminded me a lot of like tendencies with codependence as well, I guess I'm curious of. Well, first of all like why is it important to understand the intentions and motivations behind our behaviors and how can we use that to grow? And then also how and does the enneagram relate to other patterns of behavior, like codependence, like people pleasing? Do you notice like certain types are more inclined to certain areas? Can you be inclined to like as a two, would it be a thing to be codependent, or is that more indicative of a nine with that? I'm curious about that as well.

Yeah, absolutely no. You're picking up on patterns already for sure. So the, the why is it important to know your enneagram type and what can you do with it once you know it? It's kind of like the, it's like an existential question. You know, it's like the big, it's the big work, right. For me, the reason I think it's most important for my clients to understand. It's that what you're talking about, where you feel like you were reading your diary, where they feel seen, understood, they don't feel alone anymore, like there's, like, oh, there's this isn't something wrong with me. So it's that self-acceptance. It's that being in community with others who can deeply know and understand you. It's the idea that you knew people had different points of view but now, knowing just as true and real as your lens is to you, that you view the world, so is theirs. So I don't need to take it so personally when your lens is speaking differently and I don't need to worry about really when you're going with your thoughts and behaviors, because that's your journey. And so for me, as a type two, we are the most Codependent of all the nine types. We really are, especially in our average and unhealthy levels, not that other types are not, but that we really are like classic codependency. And so you know me owning my own crap, really, and understanding myself and turning my lens onto myself and taking care of myself. That was the journey for me, and each of the nine types has their own journey that's so deeply important for them to recognize and realize. And the message of the core longing, which is that message your soul needs to hear for us too. As it is, you are loved and wanted Just for who you are. You don't have to do things for other people, you don't have to help other people to get love and want. You are worthy of love, just for who you are. You are love at your essence and we need to truly, deeply, madly, believe that. And and when I have that connection moment with a Any of the nine types and I say that core longing to them and I give them that message of Of that, it's like this moment where their soul recognizes I don't believe that about myself, and why not? And so that's the work, because that one thing that you truly want to believe it's going to set you free from these fears and desires, is your work to do, and Everyone can keep giving, like everyone can keep saying Holly, you're amazing. Holly, I love you. Holly, everything you do for people is amazing, but it just goes right through you until you can fully believe that about yourself. And so if we each took the time to turn the mirror on ourselves, deeply understand where we're coming from and then learn all of the other lenses, what a beautiful world this would be, because we'd have a deeper understanding and empathy for people around us. So that's why we love the Enneagram and I'll let you, if you want to add anything there that I can go on to the next question about the co-dependency and the prosciptor use to that if you'd like.

But yeah, well, I really love that because so my Life's work is rooted in Mindfulness and yoga, and what you were just saying reminds me a bit about what you were saying before about like the ego. I think a lot of this work can come into play with, you know, be having that awareness of like, our thought patterns, our longings, our ego, and being able to witness it instead of over identifying with it. So I think that's a really cool parallel where mindfulness can help us work with this really powerful tool and just kind of check in of like oh, this is my ego here, this is a thought pattern. That's not necessarily true and as you were speaking, I was also wondering like does? Are we just like born this way? Is it rearing? I kind of notice my to like need to be loved, never feeling loved enough. I almost think is like a generational trauma or pattern that I took on from my grandmother. Hey, is that a thing? Or?

I mean the types come from. I'll tell you my own personal beliefs on it. I've done reading on it and obviously over the past few years of being a certified coach, I've been witness to other people's journeys, supporting them through that, and so just just my own take on it I don't think that there's gonna be any scientific proof. We can't go to an infant and say what are your core motivators, what is your lens to attributing the world. They wouldn't be able to tell us that right. And so when I come from is kind of like this idea that we are born with our lens. For me, my children in the womb were two different, unique individuals. They have maintained that same energy since they came out of me and I don't know yet what their type is. I'm very you know, and I don't want them to be a type because that means you're over identified, right. But I'm curious about who they're going to become and what patterns and what things they're gonna have. But I truly believe they come out and there's three stances there's a sort of aggressive, there's dependent and there's withdrawn. People have this energy of against energy, towards energy or away, and I feel from my daughter this towards energy, this very dependent stance, energy. Those are types one, two and six from my wife, someone I feel is very against energy. He's, and he's either probably going to be a three, seven or eight, I don't know yet. But what the, what the Research says or what all of the any grab stuff is your type is actually based off of? All of it starts with your orientation to your parental figures. So we have a nurturing figure and we have a protective figure. Now, generally speaking, you think nurturing is going to be your mother and protective is going to be your father. This is a whole long talk but basically, even if they didn't protect or nurture you, they're probably the person you view as those things for sure. But that's, you know, kind of the way it is, and you either have a connection to, which means you identify with them, a Disconnection, which means you do not identify with them, or an ambivalence, to which you wanted to connect but you didn't quite know how, and so you try to find your place in the family. Each of the nine types has one of those, different for each, and that's how they come at the world. So for us, as type twos, we have an ambivalence towards our protective figure and that means that we didn't know how to fully connect. We didn't know how, but we didn't want to disconnect, we didn't want to be rejected. So we have this in-between space and that's how we kind of come at the world, where it's like I really want to connect with you, but I'm afraid you're gonna reject me and it's one foot in the door, one foot out. We're just trying to connect and trying to find a place to belong and be loved, and so for us to do that, instead of we, we need to find a place in our family that we felt we could be Kind of complimentary to, that protective figure, so that we could connect with them. So we become the nurturer, we sit next to them and nurture. That's how we do, that's how we come at the world. We nurture the world, we nurture people, we meet in hopes that we will have that connection that we're searching for. So their common childhood experience that each of the nine types has, due to that connection, disconnection or ambivalence and there's nothing Like that I can point out to say for sure for everyone that happens, that Creates that. I believe that you just come into the world with it and then that's the lens that you're viewing the world and it gets reinforced through your nurturing or not. That's my belief, so take it with your grace, yeah.

Something that I've always found really helpful about the Enneagram 2 is this acknowledgement and correct me if I'm wrong that the way I was presented with it was that you are all of the types. You have all of these types in you. You have all these different healthy and unhealthy things about all of them at some degree and it's just the one that you really gravitate towards or, as I guess, as you're saying, as the lens you're seeing the world through. Is that a correct interpretation?

I mean because? So when you're over identified with your ego and you're in the average levels, it's pretty obvious what your type is most of the time. Well, I should back up. It can be. It can be pretty obvious what your type is, because you're over identified. You know right In the average level, but the work is to actually get out of your type and prove to yourself this is just a story that you've been telling yourself and it's just a bunch of, basically, behaviors and attitudes that come from fears and desires that are not real. And so the more you can misidentify, take away the structures of your type and become more free, the more you identify more with all of the types. And so there's this thing called the rule of seven. It's intense. We won't get too far into it today because it'll kind of when we haven't talked about all the nine types, but look it up if you want to. So basically, the idea is that we process through the lens of each of the nine types and you might get stuck in one kind of for a little bit, but like, yeah, you process through each of them and like, getting to know their lens and understanding where they're coming from helps you again realize it's not just about what I want in the world and helps you to see how much you do want the things the other people want and the desires that they have. So, again, your type does not change, you don't become those types, but you just learn more and take on more of like oh, that's how you're seeing the world. The grace that I need to learn about from the type one is this and the you know being competent and capable from the five is what I need to learn from them, and safety and security is what I need to learn from the six, and so just taking on these different lenses and understanding them can help us and you can, yeah, lead into that. Now we have direct lines that are resource points for us that we access from our type structure, uh, help support us and also can take on some of that not so great thing. So you have the stress or arrow of disintegration that you naturally kind of take on some of those unhealthy attributes of another type, and then you have the arrow of growth or integration, and that's that, that guidance. That's basically the type that has oppositional behaviors of you. Man, I wish I could be more fill in the blank. That's probably the type that you need to lean in more Right to prove to yourself the story of telling yourself is not true. You can be more that way. It's there for you to take, and when you do that, you'll find there's so much more mental, emotional, physical energy for you to be in the world with and be present with Right. So, yeah, there's connections to the different types, but sometimes people hear that they're like so it's just doesn't matter and it's like no, the first step in all of this is knowing what your core type is and undoing undoing all of the personality work that has been holding you in place, and then it's exploring and getting to know all the other lenses.

Yeah, and just a side note for those who are listening right now, in the show notes, chelsea gave us this like really amazing, just brief overview of all the types. So if you know your type, you can kind of look at that as you're listening to this conversation. Or if you end up working with Chelsea or taking a test or engaging with your type in another way, that's a resource to carry with you as well. But I really love what you were saying to about how it can be like stepping back from that lens you were used to seeing, remembering like that story and it's a story, it's not true and it reminds me a lot I think of. I'm really into the work of Kristen Neff and the science of self compassion and a lot of I think what you're saying can really help cultivate that deep self compassion with, like the why. This is maybe why these patterns can come up. But also there's a key component in that healing process of common humanity of knowing that, like I am not alone in this, that there are other people who feel this way too. There are other people who feel suffering in ways different than the suffering that I feel, but it's a root cause that's connecting all of us. So I really love the way that the Enneagram can be a tool to also highlight those elements that I have found really healing as well.

Absolutely when my clients had that moment, so like. So. Other people think like this too. I'm like oh absolutely Other people think like this too and you're not alone. And I think the fact that there is this I mean it's a little bit cumbersome to see it first because you don't understand how you're going to get there, but to see the levels of development and to see these healthy attributes that are there for you to take, it's an invitation for you to start to think about. And I tell people, let's not get overwhelmed here. You're not again. You're not becoming that other type, right. You're looking at spaces and places where you have security in your life that you can maybe start edging in some of these more favorable and productive attitudes and behaviors in your life. So like, let's say, if 90% of your day is taken up with your type structure, you just bring in 10% of your day with some of the other type structure to sort of like replace unwanted behaviors or unwanted attitudes that are not serving you any longer. So for us, as type twos, we go to that type four and they are the romantic individualists. They're super introspective, they're very much so knowing who they're working on, who they are authentically self-reflecting and all those things. And we are. Brain space is literally 90% taken up with other people's needs and wants, without us even recognizing it. So just stopping for a minute of the day doing the breathing exercises you did and just looking at myself what do I need today? What do I need today to fill my own cup? And regardless of everyone else thinks of it right, and so I think that it's just well. I can't do that all the time. I'm not going to go from thinking about other people 90% of the time to thinking about other people's 5% of the time. Can I inch in a little bit more time for introspection, a little bit more time for self growth and self love? And to me, one of the best tools for that is the Enneagram, because there's so much for you to learn about and you're also learning about other people at the same time, which we love you. So.

I love that.

Yeah.

And I think you know, for me it really kind of is like man. I feel like this is why I have delved so deep into yoga and mindfulness, because it's been a really key way for me to get in my body, know what I need and hold my own gravity and carry that as I engage with other people, instead of just getting so lost in those things and consumed by it.

Yeah, we have to have time alone because we literally feel like that's our core differentiator. We feel other people's needs and if we're not aware of that, we just go into action without even recognizing it. And so you keep talking about the body. So there's three centers of intelligence the head, the heart and the body center. And what happens is we are heart types and so we lead with that and we feel things and then we get right into action on those things and we're repressed in our head center. We don't take the time to think through what does this mean for me, what does this mean for them? What is it? It's just we feel their need and we jump into action and we need to be curious about did they ask for that? Is this what we want to do? Is this who am I doing this for Really? Who am I doing this for? Who is this for, and did they ask for it? And just those little small questions. So, yes, taking the time to be contemplative in your own space. I have to get away from people sometimes. I'm a people person, but I can feel the energy of the room when I'm in it and it's overwhelming, so I have to get into the quiet space and protect myself time and time again so that I can come back to myself. So all those practices that you're in, that's why you're in the healthier space, that's why you have those, that introspection. So it's nothing that you haven't known, but knowing that you're doing it now intentionally, because you see it as a plan for yourself to be free from those fears and desires, feels like a whole different level of doing. And that's what I love about the Enneagram, too, is the intentionality behind the actions we have.

Yeah, so much of what you said was just like yep, feel all of those things. So, as we've been talking more about how the Enneagram impacts our relationships, do you mind speaking to like how it impacts the way we engage with people and how it can be used to deepen intimate relationships, when you were saying my husband hasn't been like he's done a test, but it doesn't know as much about it, but I'm pretty sure he's a type nine as well, so I found that interesting.

Yeah, we compliment each other really well. There's so much to talk about here. We can have a whole other podcast all about relationships and Enneagram. It's one of my favorites. It's how I was introduced to the Enneagram. I was in couples counseling with my husband after having a child and we just were missing each other. But we weren't in crisis and he, the therapist, basically brought up the Enneagram to us because the issues we were having were both personal issues. There's so much about our personality structures that were complimentary but that were also holding us back from having those deep, intimate conversations because we both were trying to people please the other person and letting our own needs and desires go to the side and then feeling like the other person wasn't meeting our needs and desires even though they were working so hard to do so. It's so clear that I know our types. I'm like, oh geez, that's what was happening. So I actually do couples typing sessions and I will sit with a couple and talk to them, listen to them, push back on them and let them hear each other. I'm very careful with boundaries in words. When it's your turn, it's your turn, so there's a safe space for us to do this. But hearing the deep connection with some of the not so great behaviors you know your significant other might have, and hearing them come to terms with where that's coming from and you understanding where it's coming from just allows for this empathy and understanding. And oh, that's where that's coming from. Oh, that's why you're doing that, okay. So now I don't need to take it so personally. When you need some time and space because you need autonomy, you are withdrawn type type 9s. You know all these things, okay, so what does that mean about me and what I need? And so it gives us, like this third person, the conversation and I'm very careful to never utilize it as like a pointing a finger situation, but it just kind of gives me kind of the insight into his thinking and his doing or not doing in his case sometimes. And, yeah, it just gives us a beautiful way for us to talk. Now he hasn't engaged with it quite as much as I have. Obviously, it's my life, but I do find that you know, I work with a singles group and helping them get to know themselves first before they start dating people, having the kind of questions that you asked in order to learn about yourself, utilizing those in like a dating field is, just like to me, an amazing way to have that more intimate connection with someone, rather than just like what do you like to do? You know, so it's just an awesome tool to have in your back pocket when you're, even if the other person doesn't know they're tight. You can kind of use line of questioning to sort of like get under the surface, which of course for us too is we love but not everybody's like all about those deep, intimate conversations.

Yes, I totally relate with what you were saying there as well. I definitely noticed that element of like that empathy and ability to have compassion being so key. Like I noticed that comes up for us as it's been really helpful as astrology. And then like, when will my husband will show different patterns, like before that I would take so personally. Now I'm able to take a step back and be like oh, I can have compassion for you here because I understand where that's coming from and it's not so much about me, and I think the Enneagram is such a powerful tool with that as well. So I really love to hear that and I think it really can help create a lot more depth. When maybe, like if there is a more withdrawn type that doesn't love these deep conversations as much as the two does, it kind of gives some language and scaffolding for them to open up in a realm to help bridge that Longing and connection that another type might have, or vice versa.

Absolutely, I think. For the only thing is is that, like you know, for me now I understood more Well. He's a body type. He's fallen asleep to himself, his feelings, his needs. It's not that he isn't sharing with me because he doesn't want to. He literally doesn't have the language that I had as a heart type because I live in my emotions all the time. So, like for me, it was just that, like, understand that, like he does not have the capacity right now doesn't mean he never will, but he's not being stubborn and not sharing with me because he doesn't want to. And so there's just, yeah, there's so many end-up pieces with each of the nine types. And when I work with a couple and I can show them, like, what do you need to thrive in a relationship? What do you need to thrive in a relationship? How are you meeting that for each other? And where is an opportunity for you know, for growth? And it's a lot of times the rubs that they've been having in their relationship for a really long time. But the the spouse understanding the need is coming from a desire and a fear that's deeper underneath of that Helps them to be like oh, the compassion piece, oh, okay, now I can see you're not being needy. I can see you're not being, you know, accusatory that I'm not doing this for you. It's, it's literally a human need you have. That is different for me, and as true and real as my lens is to me, yours is to you, and as much as I need this thing on the piece of paper, you need that thing. And so let me see how I can provide that for you and stretch myself in that way. And so many of us have said like, oh, I'm just bad with my emotions or I just don't know what to do with it, and that's, that's been what we've rested our laurels on. And it's like well, there's space for you to balance your heart center. There is a whole full emotional world for you to explore. And with the enneagram you, we get language around that too. Because with these centers of intelligence the head, the heart and the body Comes a core emotional struggle. And just bring that up to someone your core emotional struggle is with shame. Your core emotional struggle is with fear and anxiety. It's with rage and anger. No, you know, like what does that even mean? And like just getting into the language of emotion. For for me, as a hard type I'm like.

Not everybody knows this, but like no, they really don't they really don't, and that's okay, it's okay. Yeah, I love that and I really loved how, earlier, you were naming like the importance of working on that Before partnership to like really getting to know yourself, really getting to know these things about you, so that you're not necessarily like projecting it on your partner to like fix all of those things or fill these like Stories that, like another person can't fill. This is the work for you to do. So I really love that. The enneagram gives a tool to help know that part of yourself better and Work with it as you engage with different relationships in your life.

Yeah, I find that a lot of people have it. A lot of people think that their childhoods in the past, or they had a good childhood, so there's no way that any of that is actually affecting what they're doing today. But the enneagram has the, the last childhood message, and that has been internalized as a message that you still hold today. That again is not true, but you've told yourself it is so. For each of the nine types, because of that Connection, disconnection or ambivalence towards the protective or nurturing figure that we briefly discussed earlier, there is an internalized message that we're still is running under the surface and our subconscious telling us things like for the ones it's not okay to make mistakes, for us to is it's not okay to have your own needs and like we. We know in our heads, logically that's not true, but but emotionally and physically we act on those things as if they are. And so again, challenging our own subconscious and our own awareness is just again, a lot of deep work that you're not going to get from other Personality tests, because it's not so ingrained in us from childhood. And if someone can, I don't want to say fix, but work on that message before they get into relationships so they're not again projecting that out to their partner like huge. If you're already in a relationship, still do the work, please, please. It will only help.

Yes, so I had posed this question to the community just like letting people send in what they wanted to know, and there were two questions that I think are really powerful, that I want to give voice to today, and one was how can the NEA gram be used in social, social movements to bridge across cultures, communication styles and justice issues? Do you mind leaning into that?

Yeah, that's beautiful. I think there's some like. So I think I'm gonna try to say his name right. Or on a payas he has Podcasts with B. It's just chestnuts. Their authors of my favorite any gram book for growth, which is any gram guide to waking up, and he has done a lot of work with the any gram in different cultures and how it's utilizing different cultures and even the, the core type of Different cultures, if you will, sort of like the United States, is kind of an any gram type 3 culture when we're all about success and looking good and pulling up our bootstraps and just moving forward and then like trying to, you know, putting almost to the different cultures their overall Arching archetype that their culture brings, and I think that and itself is a really interesting way of doing things. I haven't leaned into his Studying too much, just listening to his podcast and hearing have talked about it a little bit. So that would be a great person to listen to or to kind of like read about His, his passions. With that I I see it as being a tool for connection across all cultures, across all political thoughts, because we can understand why that person holds that lens so truly to themselves and I. That's why the passion I have is to impact as many people as possible and just get as many people as possible to know, understand themselves. Because I truly believe if we are a more self-aware World, if we are more aware of our own like weaknesses, blind spots, communication patterns, and each person would just learn this about themselves. The collective capacity of the universe to just be a better place right, like they're still gonna be, but like because there's the unhealthy average and healthy behaviors it challenges us as humans to get to a healthier place, and I don't know very many people who, when they hear that, don't want to learn what that means. So I'm not answering the question directly, but because I I've made it a passion myself to get as many people in as many circumstances and places to know this. But there's people out there doing the work on a bigger, grander scale, trying to get people in the world to learn about, and I think that doing podcasts like this and just getting the message out there that there is a tool that can do this, become curious, is Just gonna again build that collective capacity for all of us to be better people, and then I don't say better people, but more Connected to ourselves, so that we can connect better with others, fuller people better. Like not bad, or I mean there are, yeah, but like we don't need to fix things. I do think if we could hold the beer up to ourselves for so busy blaming other people for things, that that it's like no. Like the Taylor Swift song, it's like no, you're the problem, like I'm the problem like me, like I need the problem here and quit blaming other people and take control of my own stuff right?

Yeah, definitely so. Another question that someone sent, in which I love, I feel like this one's really relatable is what does it mean if the number or type I'm assigned to makes me feel Boxed in or makes me cringe?

Oh yeah, yeah, and that's another reason why finding your type can be hard. The exact thing that you really don't love about yourself is probably what makes a big part of your type structure up, and that's a part of my job that I Kind of love, which is kind of mean, like I love that tough love moment where I'm kind of what I just said, like you're the problem. So if you hate it when other people are super critical or really angry or really what a whatever it is, if you're like that person's so XYZ, they're so fake, they're so whatever guess what? That's probably something that's a part of you, that's probably a blind spot for you, that's probably your thing that you need to work on, and so that means you've probably found your type, and the work is not Easy. It doesn't feel good, but it's up to you to not criticize yourself for it and again accept how you've gotten here and having clarity around that helps you to kind of release yourself from the self judgment and criticism and be more accepting and curious. And if you don't like that thing, there's an invitation for you to stop right, like if you, if you don't like the other people, are critically harsh or use their anger Unproductively against people, then make sure you're not doing that. Take that out of the universe, right, and so I feel like it's not boxing you in unless you stop and stay stuck there. So if you see that thing and you go, you, I don't like that, I'm not looking at that again Then you're gonna stay stuck. No like if you're like I don't, like that's up to you. Then you can leave it alone, but it's still going to be true whether or not you engage with it, and the fact that there is a whole System that's gonna help you become free from that should give you the hope and the lean into it. But if you're not ready yet, if you got too much trauma you've been through, then go to therapy, work for your trauma and then get into your Personality right, because those things can get interwoven over the past. And and that's how I found myself with the Enneagram is going through EMDR therapy, you know, and just fully healing my being so that I can get to the conscious choice things.

And I would really lean in from from the work that I do, to like not being stuck in those parts that are that maybe we don't like initially. Love about ourselves, right, like not being stuck in them, not like repeating those patterns, but can we fully accept these parts of ourselves that are there and have compassion for where those beliefs and fears and longings come from, and can we like embody that as a part of our wholeness? Can we accept it, can we steep it in love and then we can take the work and necessary action to step into the fullness of who we are and adjust and change patterns of behavior Absolutely beautifully said, absolutely beautifully said, because that deep self-acceptance of that part of yourself you don't love right now is what's going to heal it.

And then, when someone else is acting that way, you're gonna say, oh, there's a part of you that needs to be healed and that's your work to do. But I can understand with compassion because I've worked on myself in that way. That's coming from a place that's not your best self, but that's okay, and not being so affected by other people's or reactive to that. That is the whole journey of the integral. Because I feel like you know, like science will suddenly message like why am I doing this thing or why did that happen? And there is an answer there for that. But then, after I've kind of helped guide them back to, it's probably one of these core motivators or fears that you're being driven from or your defense mechanism that it's coming from. Once they have that language, they're like I'm feeling this way because and they understand- where that's going from Wow. it's totally understandable that I'd be feeling rejected right now because I have a core fear of rejection and I'm very sensitive to that's okay, that's just who I am. I don't need to allow that to take over my whole day today. I don't need to keep putting mental, physical and emotional energy into that. So it's like the self-coaching that can come from having a deep understanding of why that icky behavior or not so nice thing about yourself is bothering you. Because I feel that we don't get enough validation from ourselves because we either dismiss our needs, we dismiss our wants, we dismiss our emotions and just try to keep trudging forward. But we should be validating and saying it's understandable. of course you're feeling this way, yes, and it's lovely to get that from other people, but you have to be able to do that for yourself first, and so that's a lot of the work I do with my clients is like specifically around their needs and we're enforcing those, because anger is an unmet need and so if we can get at that need and get it met, then you'll be a less angry person, a less reactive person.

So I have two questions for you before we end our time today. So one I feel like we've been kind of touching on this throughout our conversation but how does the Enneagram support mental health and well-being, and what is one thing you would recommend listeners do today to work with the Enneagram as a tool to support them in their lives?

Again with the levels of development, which it's a very intense thing to get into, to really get deep into it, but gives kind of voice to how each of the types can disintegrate into extremely unhealthy behaviors, that where we have personality disorders and just the darkness of the human experience, if you will, all of the way through up to the healthiest levels of development. And so basically acknowledging there is a space within each one of us that can be dark and light, that we can lean into and step into those healthier spaces for ourselves. And there's hope for each of us that, should we engage, be curious and be open to and say what, if this is true about me that we can heal those parts of ourselves and again live more present here in this moment and connected with the here in this moment, so that we have our full human experience. And the way to do that is to figure out your any of them type like this is honestly like if you don't know it or you've been kind of like ah yeah, I took a test, I'm not sure. Da, da, da, da. Like honestly, just it takes time. It takes time to learn it and to really understand it. And I would say there's a lot of distractions with different like what's your wing, what's your growth? Learn your core type, learn what is my type and what makes you that type. Is that core motivation, the core motivators fears and desires and start asking yourself that exact thing why did I just do that? And become curious Before you do something, why am I doing this? Which of these motivators is driving me and which one? And do I want that to be driving me? So get back into the driver's seat of your life and say, oh, I was going to just call so-and-so why am I calling them? And is it for me? Am I trying to get something out of this? And it's amazing how, when you just start to do that and question like, why am I doing this, how the reactivity goes down and the curiosity goes up and the present moment becomes more important than what happened in the past or what's going to happen in the future.

Mm. I love that. And how can people work with you, support the work that you do and stay in touch, cause I just loved soaking in all of your insights today.

Thank you yeah, one of my favorite things to do is something I specialize in is connecting people with their core type, and so we talked about how tests can be difficult. It can be difficult to admit these things about ourselves, and our initial response might be what we want to hear about ourselves rather than what is true. So I do offer typing sessions and even if you know your core type, it is an amazing one hour session. That's interview style, where you're the expert on you and I listen to you and connect you with wow, that I wonder if that's coming from this core motivator. I wonder if it's because and let's talk about that and connect you with that information. So that's one hour. And then I also have an hour and a half session called a leveling session, but it's not about figuring out your level of development. It's learning the levels of development and looking at those core dynamics of the fears and desires that arise at each level the attitudes, which are the inner things that are rolling around that other people can't see, and the behaviors which is what other people see that are stemming from those. We do a deep dive on that and then set intentions around. Okay, this is an average behavior that I'm still, or attitude that I'm still struggling with. What do I wanna replace that with from a healthier side of things? And intentions then turn into habits, right, if you choose to do so. So I package those two together and it's an amazing just two session package, and then, of course, I have my whole elite life journey if it goes from there. But those two things can have the capacity to be life-changing. To be honest, I'm there, I'm with it. It has to do with the enneagram, and you're curious. If you want someone to speak on something parenting work I mean, yes, what is it? Yeah, I love it.

I'll make sure all the links are in the show notes for people to work with you and stay connected with you. Chelsea, thank you so much for taking time to really help us dive in and look at ourselves more deeply and the wholeness of who we are and connect to that common humanity and compassion. I think the enneagram is a really powerful tool for this and I really appreciate you speaking to this with us today. If this conversation with Chelsea has inspired you to learn more about the enneagram and start working with it, we have a special offer for how the wise one grows listeners. You can get 20% off a session with Chelsea by using the code 20off. That's two zero, all caps O, F, F for 20% off a session with Chelsea. So, if you haven't already heard, there is a new kid on the block called the how the wise one grows dream team, and this team is a group of listeners could be you who support the podcast every month. So if this podcast has been impactful in your life in any way, consider joining the dream team for as little as $3 a month and you can help all the podcast dreams come true. And you can also help support this podcast by sharing an episode you love with a friend and giving us a review on your favorite streaming platform.